I'm using ArM5.

I need to know what will happen if a magus permanently moved his "mind" to a new body.

Will he still possed the Gift and any "mental/spiritual" Virtue?
Will he regain any Mental Attribute points lost to aging (you have a brand new brain now! ^_^ )
Will his SOUL be transferred? Yes, no, whY?

What will collide with the Limit of Essential Nature...or the Limit of Divine (souls) ?

Thx for any help ^_^

I love magic theory questions!

First, Ars5 p 152 details Exchange of the Two Minds. Under normal circumstances in Ars5 the best a magus can do is YEAR spell. So I'm going to assume 'permanent' means YEAR.

Second, the spell clearly details it does not switch the souls of the targets.

With this in mind, lets look at your questions.

//Will he still possed the Gift?//

Good question!

Previous editions of the game said yes, the magus still has the gift and is capable of casting magic from the new body. However I do see how a case could be made for loseing the gift. The Gift is the ability to cast to magic and if one transfered into a body that doesn't have the gift an arguement can be made that while in this body a magus can not access their magics.

On the other hand the spell is only switching the minds of the targets (not the souls). This means where ever the magi's mind may be in, it's still 'linked' to it's soul, it's true self which is gifted. The gift is apart of a characters essential nature and can't be changed. So the essential nature follows the character to whereever their mind may go. Given this fact a mage could cast magic.

I see how the arguement could go either way, but I'm going to go with my gut and say... the mage can cast magic for the reason I mentioned above. There essential nature can't be changed, the new body is a conduit linked to the true person, which is gifted. So they can still cast magic.

//Will he still possed... any "mental/spiritual" Virtue?///

Yes, for the same reason they can cast magic. Their 'soul', their true self is gifted, and I believe that regardless to where you move the mind of the magus, they are still linked to their true self, thier essential nature, therefore they can access appropriate virtues AND flaws. Get that? FLAWS FOLLOW the character to the new body.

//Will he regain any Mental Attribute points lost to aging (you have a brand new brain now! ^_^ )//

Another good question.

Here's my crappy answer, "it depends".

Remember, the spell clearly establishes that you are not transfering your soul, just your mind. Decreptitude, the ageing of the body, these are unchangeable things. That is magic can't fix them. Everybody gets old, everybody dies. Some of these effects are tied to the body, but some are more abstract and tied to the 'mind'.

If a character's perception lowered due to age and one clearly estabilshed that they were going blind. I would say that yes, the perception increases to that of the new body. But if it was established that the characters perception was lower because they were becomeing senial, I would not change it. Even though one could argue that they have a better 'brain', I think this is an anachronistic explanation. I think the spirit of the game suggests that a magus may be using the body of a young person, but they are essentially 'transmitting' their self from their original body. With that in mind, some lowered attributes will remain as they are 'transmitted' to the new body. It's situational.

For what it's worth, I would always take a conservative course or these sort of benifits will come back as resentment between players or GM headaches.

//Will his SOUL be transferred? Yes, no, whY?//

No.
Well first, the spell clearly says so, that's why.
Second, again I think it's the essential nature of a person, which can't be changed. A man is always a man, a woman is always a woman. That's from the book. You can switch the minds of two people, but it's unnatural. The true person their 'mind' belongs in it's natural habitat, it's body.

//What will collide with the Limit of Essential Nature...or the Limit of Divine (souls) ???

As I've suggested above, it collides with the limit of Essential Nature. I don't think the limit of Divine is in conflict. And I don't think the Limit of the Soul is in conflict. It's interesting, because the Limits say a Soul can't be created. It doesn't say it can't be changed. Now it don't think there is a form that's appropriate for changing the Soul, but that's a different discussion. So again, the issue here is Essential Nature and the fact that magic must be used and MAINTAINED in order to alter the essential nature of something.

Hope this helps,

Chuck

P.S.
If I'm wrong, I'd love to here why. This sort of discussion is the stuff I enjoy.

Thx for the answer ^_^

Now...

- Excange of the Two Minds
It's a REGO spell...that means that the effect "can naturally occur".
What's against makeing it a Momentary+Ritual spell to make the switch permanent?

The ploblem may be...

- Essential Nature
Besides the "REGO" argument...
As the book shows it, one can say that "a human is a human" "a male is a male".
If me and you (both male and human) switch minds...well...mayibe it's not against EN.
If I'm able to find a vessel with my same physical Virtues and Flaws (that are part of a person's Nature) I don't see any problem ;)
[That may mean I need another Gifted person]

By definition the EN defines WHAT something/someone is; it's not "identity"...it's not "me and you"...I see it as a sort of "metaphisical category".

But the problem still is...

- Soul
The right FORM to affect it should be Mentem...because it can affect "spirits".
Mentem can summon, command, ward and damage spirits.

BUT a human soul is an "Immortal Soul"...and that is immune from Ermetic Magic thanks to the Limit of the Divine :P
Now, one can ask himself: what't the difference between a Spirit and a Soul?
Why I have power over a dead-spirit and not over a living-soul?
The CreoCorpus "Shadow of Life Renewed" (a Mom+Ritual ^_^) brings back a dead-spirit to inhabit a regenerated body; but life force is very feeble (unable to gain XP and starts aging after 1 year).

Is "my living spirit" enough to give full life to a host-body?
I can even use PerdoMentem to destroy your mind and spirit in order to make room for me...(or not, as it may prevent an Essentially Natural transition).

- So...

Assuming I can't do anything to my "soul"...if I permanently switch body...I tecnically lose my soul...but end up with another one.
As you see the exchange is equivalent, thus EN should not kick-in.

Also, since both subjects are alive, I should be able to avoid the unpleasant side-effects of "Shadow of Life Renewed".
_________

So in the end if my assumptions are correct I should obtain "a new body" with a spell like this:

RegoMentem +Ritual
Base Effect: 20 as "Excange of the Two Minds"
R:Touch (+5)
D:Momentary (+0)
T:Circle (+0)
ToT LvL = 25
In order to circumvent Essential Nature the "vessel" has to:
- be the same species (Human)
- be the same gender
- have the same Physycal and Supernatural Virtues and Flaws

Oh my gosh...this looks just like the tipical "dark ritual" of the BaaaaD-Maaaaage from horror books and movies! :D
One day someone will be stalked because "he's the RIGHT ONE!" ... amazing! ^_^

(If it works)

I know the Level is much lower (25 vs 55) but that depends on the altered parameters...maybe we can add the "Unnatural" descriprot...but "Excange of the Two Minds" does not have it!
The Target "Circle" should work in the same way as "Group"...
And dispite the Level...the real problem is finding a suitable body :P

Comments? ^^

The final issue would be about the lost Mental points...I have to go deeper in the study of Aging and Decrepitude ;)

Interesting spell with lots of story ideas beside it, but wouldn't the magus die when his old body dies? After all, his soul is still there... What the soul has to do with the 'life force'? Any medieval theologian could please help? :p

Could a magus just keep changing bodies generation after generation leaving old husks behind, and gaining a new soul with each body? Can a magus (or any other for that matter) live without a soul?

Just some questions that threw Middle Ages theology away during the Age of Reason ;)

Regards,
Lorenzo

As the book says at page 80, Ermetic Magic can't create "life" because this thing depends on the presence of an Immortal Soul.
(Animals are soulless...and there is no mention of a "spirit" either)

Soul = True Life Force

I think that Essential Nature works on "equivalence" rather than "identity".
So the travelling mind should be fine untill it stays in a body with "A" soul...not necessarely "HER" soul.

That's why a body can live even after the mind has been destroyed (with PerdoMentem).

EDIT!
What about Warping?
Is it a feature of the soul? of the EN? of the mind?

Well technically the limit of the body is not revelent. Remember that with the Warping that leeds to final twilight for a hermetic magus is the real life time limit.

Just using a standard Longevity potion, you can have your body outlive its use since the mage twilights way before 'natural' death occurs.

That Beeing said I can see a magus creating a perfect vessal for himself using a CrCo(In) momemtary ritual followed by a ReMe Momentary ritual that implies killing he original vessal. Essentially getting a new young body. I would then warp the body using the warping score of the Magus as a second effect which would be an interesting side effect to have for this type of spell.

The end result would be the same magus with his young new body from the past, a few new flaws & possibly a merit following the warping rules. He would retain his Warping score & mental stat changes(due to warping or decrepitude) but would have his physical traits restored.

A magus could choose to avoid using Longivity potions hense avoiding some twilight points in exchange of risquing this ritual every 30-40 years.

There is the problem of the soul. One could argue that your new body does not have a soul and only your mind was transfered... Original research could be made to break that limit & would allow the transfer of the soul. Using the conventionnal Hermetic magic would probably result in a beeing similar to the CrCo ritual that brings back people from the dead.

To solve this matter without having to make a breakthru you could have your old body sustained by magic eternally but that would bring warping again. The best short cut would be to deal with the infernal who know how to manipulate the soul very well...

Well, first your going to do what ever you want to do. Having said this, my goal isn't to convince you that my way is right, but I will point how I interpret the book. Having said this let's begin...

//It's a REGO spell...that means that the effect "can naturally occur".
What's against makeing it a Momentary+Ritual spell to make the switch permanent?//

As I said in my first mail, the Limit of Essential Nature.

Any magic that violates a things essential nature must be maintained. Exchange of the Two Minds is a Ritual Spell and it lasts for a Year.

Rego "allows a maga to change the state of a thing to some othe state that the individual thing can naturally have."
Momentary "lasts a moment and disipates. In many cases the effects of the spell will endure..."

In many cases, not in all in cases. The book goes on to describe how once a rock is moved, the rock remains where it is moved to. I argue that a mind's natural state is in it's own body. Therefore Momentary can not be used to permanently move a mind. When the magic wears off, the mind would snap back to it's original body. The book seems to support me as magic must be used to maintain the spell and keeps the minds switched for duration: YEAR.

//If I'm able to find a vessel with my same physical Virtues and Flaws (that are part of a person's Nature) I don't see any problem ;)
[That may mean I need another Gifted person]//

If your going to pursue this, I would agree you need a Gifted Person, just make it more difficult. However in reality I actually disagree. First I think it will be nigh-impossible to find someone with all the same virtues and flaws and even if you do, I still don't think this person will qualify as a metaphysical substitute allowing you to make the spell permanent.

//By definition the EN defines WHAT something/someone is; it's not "identity"...it's not "me and you"...I see it as a sort of "metaphisical category".//

The mind is not the soul and the soul is not the mind, but identity lies some where in between. Can identity be destoryed and the soul untouched? I suppose so. But the books clearly establish that Exchange of the Two Minds requires magic to maintain the switch. Observation suggests that the "Mind" belongs in it's own body. Magic must be constantly used to make it other wise. Again, I say Essential Nature wants the mind to be in it's own body, regardless of where "Identity" is.

//- Soul
The right FORM to affect it should be Mentem...because it can affect "spirits". Mentem can summon, command, ward and damage spirits.//

No.

Mentem does affect spirits. The books strongly suggests that spirits are Non-corpreal Minds. That is they are Minds without bodies. There are no Hermetic spells that allow Magi to summon, command, ward, and damage living souls. When people die, Magi continue to be unable to summon, command, ward, and damage souls. They can only affect the mind, and when Magi manipulate Ghosts they are affecting the "Mind" of the spirit, not it's soul.

//Now, one can ask himself: what't the difference between a Spirit and a Soul?
Why I have power over a dead-spirit and not over a living-soul?//

See above. Magi can influence the Mind, not the soul. If one had to break this into mechanical rules, the Spirit can be influenced by Mentum, but the Soul can not be influenced by any known Form.

//The CreoCorpus "Shadow of Life Renewed" (a Mom+Ritual ^_^) brings back a dead-spirit to inhabit a regenerated body; but life force is very feeble (unable to gain XP and starts aging after 1 year).//

No.

Shadow of Life Renewed, "Brings a SEMBLANCE of life to a corpse"

It does not "bring back a dead-spirit to inhabit a regenerated body".

The corpse is not alive. Magic is maintaining the body, giving it the 'semblance' of life, but it is not alive.

A spirit could be 'pushed' into a walking corpse, but Creo Corpus does not do this.

//Is "my living spirit" enough to give full life to a host-body?//

No. The host body is already alive on it's own, or its some kind of animated item, which is not alive. Be it Essential Nature, Limit of Creation, Energy, or Soul (Soul is my Number One Reason), "full life" can not be given to a host body.

//I can even use PerdoMentem to destroy your mind and spirit in order to make room for me...(or not, as it may prevent an Essentially Natural transition).//

No, it's not relevant. No matter how much 'room' you carve out of a human, you can not make 'room' for your life force, because you can't remove a persons essential nature/soul/whatever.

//Assuming I can't do anything to my "soul"...if I permanently switch body...I tecnically lose my soul...but end up with another one.//

You can't not lose your sould nor can you switch or trade souls.

//Also, since both subjects are alive, I should be able to avoid the unpleasant side-effects of "Shadow of Life Renewed"...

Shadow of Life Renewed is not relevant to what your character is trying to do.

Chuck

Edited 10/4/2005 2:02 pm ET by Tuura

Edited 10/4/2005 2:04 pm ET by Tuura

Obviously the reason we debate here is to share ideas and thought ^_^

One thing I learned so far: Disembodied Mind = Spirit...that's an interesting point I didn't know about ;)

Then...

//Momentary "lasts a moment and disipates. In many cases the effects of the spell will endure..."

You are misinterpreting.
The phrase "In many cases the effects of the spell will endure" means that a SIMPLE Mom spell is generally used to create effects that last on their own.
I can make a fly spell with Mom duration...it will be useless, but it will work...for a moment :P
The statment is relative to Perdo effects that do damage, or to Creo effects that heal, or similar effects.

Everytinh that doesn't go against Essential Nature is "Real", and Reality is self-sustaining and non-magical.

Since healing or causing wounds are things that don't clash with EN, the magical effect becomes Real.
THAT is the difference between spells that need sustenance and those that need not.

A sword created with CreoTerram can't cross Parma Magica.
A sword created with CreoTerram Mom+Ritual is REAL and NON-MAGICAL, thus it can cross Parma Magica.

Now...almost all your points are based on the assumption that the Mind is Essentially linked to A SPECIFIC soul and body.
That is false ;)

1) The Mind can exist without a body
This is called a "spirit" or a "ghost", depending on its mental sanity ;)

2) The Mind can exist without a soul
Ermetic Magic is powerless in front of an Immortal Soul, but it can summon, control and even destroy Spirits and Ghosts.
Thus...Spirits and Ghosts have no soul.

3)The Body can exist without a mind
In the PerdoMentem examples it only needs a lvl 25 effect to "Leave a person a mindless husk".
Also the "Shadow of Life Renewed" creates a body with a rudimental mind (the spell is CreoCorpus with Mentem req) and this thing is REAL (Mom+Ritual)...but the body is not truly alive.

Summ this all up and you will see that the Mind is NOT linked to Body and Soul...nor it is linked to ONE SPECIFIC body and soul.

So we have 2 groups: the Mind and the unit made of Body+Soul.

Now...identity.
What makes identity?
Identity is MIND.
- The difference between two monozigite twins is not in the body, they are genetically identical.
- The difference is not even in the soul, otherwise Spirits and Ghosts won't have personality, memory or passions.
- The difference is in the collected accumulation of experieces, perceptions, memoryes and feelings...the difference is in the mind.

So we can pick 2 human males and name them Red and Blue.
Red IS (Essential Nature is about "being") a human male body with a soul and Red-Mind.
Blue IS a human male body with a soul and Blue-Mind.
Switch minds and you get a perfectly identical situation!

Now...the book tells us that Virtues and Flaws are part of our EN.
Then we "only" have to get a perfect match in Body and Soul...not Mind; many Virtues and Flaws are social or mental in nature:
- being a fast/slow learner
- being rich or poor
- having an eidetic memory
- being trained in Elemental Magic, or Deidne Magic, etc...

So a "RegoMentem Mom+Ritual" spell performed on "anyone" won't work due to the EN limit.
But the same spell performed on "a perfect match" will not break any Limit an become REAL.

I think ^_^

Are you assuming that the linkage between the mind and body is not part of the essential nature of the mind or can you derrive it?

If it is part of the essential nature that mind A goes with body A then putting mind A in body B will not be natural.

Your discussion regarding virtues and flaws I don't yet find convincing. I believe that virtues and flaws are only part of essential nature and I don't believe that one person's minor flaw of lameness is the same as another person's lameness flaw.

"Everyting that doesn't go against Essential Nature is "Real", and Reality is self-sustaining and non-magical."

I think that this statement unnecessarily entangles the idea of essential nature and that which is natural and non-magical. I don't see any benefit from combining the concenpts (but I'm willing to listen to counterarguments).

A person may have a bum leg or true love as part of their essential nature yet not having a bum leg or true love is not unnatural for a person.

Splitting the concept of essential nature apart from the concept of unnatural doesn't really effect your argument for permanent mind movment does it ?

Mind is not part of the Essential Nature of a human being.

You can't permanently modify EN with Ermetic Magic...unless you constantly supply magical power; meaning that the spell must continue...if it ends, the thing you modified returns to it's "Essentially Natural State".

Now...we have PerdoMentem spells that can destroy the mind.

This means that the "Mind" is not part of the "Essential Nature" of a human being...
________________________________

About "Reality".
I take an apple and give it WINGS...I can use a Mom+Ritual spell but since this goes against the EN of the apple it can't be "permanent"; so my ritual will fail after a moment.

But if, with a CreoHerbam, I create an apple with wings using a Mom+Ritual spell...the EN of this thing is to be an "apple with wings" and it won't disappear...it will become REAL...PERMANENT.

Also the definition of REAL helps me when other people, accustomed to the old ArM editions, thinks about "Permanent" as a constant magical effect :P
_____________________________

Now...since Mind is not part of a person's EN I can manipulate it and make my manipulations REAL.
That was the whole point.

Then what about Virtues?
Your question prompted me to read the book more carefully...and I have to thank you because the rules make my idea easyer to accomplish ;)

The book clearly states:
"As a rule, any disability purchased as a Flaw at character creation is part of the character's essential nature, while disabilities acquired later are not."

If "MY Essential Nature" is to be Blind I can't end up is a body with a different Essential Nature.
I need to find a suitably compatible vessel.

^_^

///- Excange of the Two Minds
It's a REGO spell...that means that the effect "can naturally occur".
What's against makeing it a Momentary+Ritual spell to make the switch permanent?///

Actually, oly Creo spells can be made "permanent" in this manner. The expenditure of vis in a Creo ritual is not to extend the duration to permanent, as such a duration does not exist in 5th Ed. The vis is to overcome the Limit of Creation, which states "Hermetic magic is incapable of creating anything permanently without raw vis."

To further assist in your endeavors, also note that pg. 80, under The Limit of Creation, states "... as Creo magic does not violate the essential nature of its target, Creo magic that does use raw vis does not need to be maintained."

This does not apply to Intellego, Muto, Rego, or Perdo affects, which would violate the essential nature of a target.

Page 112, under Durations: Momentary, goes on to state "Ritual Creo spells with Momentary duration create things that last as any other thing of that type. The magic is gone in a moment and so cannot be dispelled."

To my knowledge, there is no other rule that implies an Intellego, Muto, Perdo, or Rego ritual can have a "permanent" duration.

"But if, with a Creo Herbam, I create an apple with wings using a Mom+Ritual spell...the EN of this thing is to be an "apple with wings" and it won't disappear...it will become REAL...PERMANENT."

Maybe Winged Apples are common in a Fae or Magic Realm.
My guess would be that the EN of an "apple" is one that does not have wings.
Any such change being Muto.
A Winged Apple would likely be Creo(Muto) Herbam or Creo Herbam(Animal).
Such things would seem to be magical in nature and would require a minimum level 50 Ritual to create.
It can be done but is costly in research time and Vis to do so.

//Mind is not part of the Essential Nature of a human being.

You can't permanently modify EN with Ermetic Magic...unless you constantly supply magical power; meaning that the spell must continue...if it ends, the thing you modified returns to it's "Essentially Natural State".

Now...we have PerdoMentem spells that can destroy the mind.

This means that the "Mind" is not part of the "Essential Nature" of a human being..."//

Well hermetic magic is prevented from changing essential nature not destroying it.

Consider the lilly, it has certain aspects that are part of it's essential nature. Now if my Aprimorian school Flambeau magus utterly disinigrates this plant it's essential nature no longer exists. If it broke the limit of essential nature to destroy something then all perdo spells would be temporary.

Regardless of this issue, from your response I realize that I failed to precisly communicate my question to you. Please allow me to try it again.

Regardless of whether or not a mind is part of the essential nature of a person(a matter in which our views differ), do you have any support for the connection to a particular person to be not part of the essential nature of the mind? (Not that you need to have such support, I'm just wondering if you do.)

Here's some history (or at least the way that I remember it) regarding essential nature in the game; If I recall correctly, (and I very well might not) the laws of magic were not written as a list until third edition. The law of essential nature has always however been in the game.

I believe that essential nature started as game balance mechanic to prevent a companion from taking a big flaw such as "no hands" and then having their friendly neiborhood magus repair the problem with a handy creo corpus ritual five minutes into the first session. (I specificly mentioned companions as in first edition hermetics only had magical virtues and flaws and grogs didn't have any.)

"Excange of the Two Minds
It's a REGO spell...that means that the effect "can naturally occur".
What's against makeing it a Momentary+Ritual spell to make the switch permanent?"

Well you could use a rego spell to make an apple circle it's tree like a moth aroound a flame but at the expiration of the spell the apple will still fall to the ground.

On the subject of magic and it's permanence.

It seems others are doing a satisfactory job and questioning your assumptions on permanence, so I will not continue that discussion.

On the subject of the 'mind'.

//1) The Mind can exist without a body This is called a "spirit" or a "ghost", depending on its mental sanity ;)//

No problem yet.

//3)The Body can exist without a mind In the PerdoMentem examples it only needs a lvl 25 effect to "Leave a person a mindless husk".//

Ok...

//Also the "Shadow of Life Renewed" creates a body with a rudimental mind (the spell is CreoCorpus with Mentem req) and this thing is REAL (Mom+Ritual)...but the body is not truly alive.//

By "Rudimentary mind" you mean A)automaton B)self direction, but no personality and dangerously demented C)will, but no personality. None of the above can gain experience.

I believe the Mentem requisite at 75th level tries to make a facsimile of a mind. This does not mean that it is a mind. It is AT BEST randomly A/B/C. I do not consider any of these a "functional mind". It is a magical fasimile of a mind, and it clearly falls short. So it's inappropriate to suggest a 'rudimentary mind' is remotely close to a normal 'functional' mind.

//2) The Mind can exist without a soul Ermetic Magic is powerless in front of an Immortal Soul, but it can summon, control and even destroy Spirits and Ghosts.
Thus...Spirits and Ghosts have no soul.//

This is an erroneous conclusion.

By your logic one can say this.

Premise:
Hermetic Magic can NOT affect Soul.
Hermetic Magic can affect body.
Hermetic Magic can affect mind.

Premise:
Hermetic Magic can affect humans.
Conclusion:
Humans have no soul.

This is a Non Sequitur.
My conclusion is as correct as your conclusion that Ghosts have no Souls. They are derived from the same course of logic and both are incorrect.

This shouldn't suggest you are wrong, I simply point out that your logic is wrong. It's possible that Ghosts don't have souls, but I don't believe you've shown this to be true. For that matter, I don't believe it is true and for the record I currently can't think of an agruement to prove that I'm right (that ghosts have souls).

//Summ this all up and you will see that the Mind is NOT linked to Body and Soul//

Even if your premise are true (Mind can exist without body. Body can exist without Mind), I do not believe you can conclude that "Mind" is not linked to Body or Soul.

Again, this is an Non Sequitur.

//...nor it is linked to ONE SPECIFIC body and soul.//

Again, a Non Sequitur. These conclusions can not be made based on the established premise.

On the subject of Identity. I don't believe defineing Identity is relevant to determining if Exchange of the Two Minds can be made permanent, so I have nothing to add.

//So we can pick 2 human males and name them Red and Blue.
Red IS (Essential Nature is about "being") a human male body with a soul and Red-Mind.
Blue IS a human male body with a soul and Blue-Mind.
Switch minds and you get a perfectly identical situation!//

This is why I hate metaphors. Next time I bring them up, please someone remind me of Red-Mind Blue-Mind.

//So a "RegoMentem Mom+Ritual" spell performed on "anyone" won't work due to the EN limit. But the same spell performed on "a perfect match" will not break any Limit an become REAL.//

Again, as Erik suggested, I don't believe a 'perfect match' can exist. That my character has "Lame" and your character has "Lame" does not mean we have the exactly same manifestation of "Lameness."

By the rules, *mechanically* they cost the same, but in the context of the game world our manifestations of 'lameness' is as unique as individual fingerprints.

Therefore I do not believe that an exact match can occur, which means I do not believe the exchange of two minds can be made permanent.

Chuck

I could comment on many points...but I won't because finally a REAL problem has popped up.

Erik is right...after carefully reading the book I'm unable to find any clue that Mom+Ritual spells can be used to make a non-Creo spell permanent.
I misinterpreted the rules :P
Doh!

Besides...we can continue discussing the "nature" of spirits and ghosts ^_^
This topik is about Necromancy, after all ^^

As I originally stated, magic theory (and the mechanics of Ars) is one my favorite topics to discuss.

I'd be happy to continue this discussion, this board has been 'dead' for to long.

Chuck

Salutations on all points of the Triangle!

I have actually played a character who cast this spell and lived on in a stolen body. His name was Flargius Pestigor, an obsessive mentem freak. He, like many magi, relied on longevity rituals to prolong his life. However he suffered from a series of twillight incidents which left him close to final twillight at the young age of 59. He quickly discovered that within a few decades he would slip into final twillight due to longevity. This he did not like. Bieng a mentem specialist and a necromancer he after some consideration decided to transfer himself to a young and healthy host body using his powerful magic. He invented the spell exchange of the two minds and subsequently cast it; transfering his mind to a young 18 year old perfectly fit and healthy spanish male body.
Several questions arose:
1) Is it nescerary for the new body to be gifted in order to maintain spellcasting ability. We descided no in our Troupe. I don't remember the exact reason but our GM took awhile to be convinced that it wasn't nescesary.
2) What about the soul issue? Clearly the spell only transfers the mind and his soul remained in his old body (whose new mind was convinced that he had always been a feeble and sick old french man thanks to my good friend Mentem)
Later Flargius used his old body to convince several enemies that they had in fact succesfully assasinated him. His old body was murdered horribly.
But what now? What happens with his soul? since he "died" it probably went to afterlife... probably hell considering his depraved habits.
He now lives on in a young body which has the soul of another whose mind isn't among the living anymore.

But back to your initial questions.
//Will he still possed the Gift and any "mental/spiritual" Virtue?//
//Will he regain any Mental Attribute points lost to aging (you have a brand new brain now! ^_^ )//

We decided rather arbitrarily that he still had the gift.
All his mental virtues he kept, but not his physical ones.
He no longer had lung cancer, his maimed left arm was no longer maimed and he no longer suffers from tuberculosis.
His mental ones did carry over. He is still delusional, has book learner virtue and is still obsessed with cleanliness (But master I already washed the sanctum floor two times today!).
He is still very detached and and distant from the world around him. A consequence of bad twillight, despite his new brain this wasn't cured.

At least one problem arrose as a consequence of The Essential Nature.
Apparently it is part of the essential nature of an 18 year old hot blooded spaniard to feel lust, cravings for carnal pleasure and the like. Flargius suddenly discovered urges he hadn't feelt for looooong time.
Another unpleasent consequence was that apparently young Sanchez was i bit of a womenizer and some of his sinful activities had attracted the attention of some demons.
Question: Is it very bad if your new young body is drawing the attention of demons? I mean, so what if your new body's soul is destined for hell, you'll posses a new body if its a big problem right?

Several parts of this procces won't be possible under 5th edition rules. The spell now has a duration of year at most for instance.
But if you have to cast the spell once a year, is it nescessary to have your old body present? What if the new inhabitant ran away with it, or you had to kill him.

By the way, Necromancy in the original sense is to divine by asking the dead questions. Very common in ancient egypt where this was the most common form of divination practiced by the "mundanes".
A typical method was to write a question on papyrus and burn it at the grave. I'm not sure how they got their answers though.

Hail Eris!
Flarg

Faerie Magic can be cast with duration "Untill".
Be a good Necromancer and build a _philactery_...then cast the spell to switch minds and make it last < Untill this philactery is broken >.

This way even if the former body dies, you don't have a problem ;)

The conditional duration is a clever loophole, but it reminds me of old Captain Marvel/Shazam comics. All you need is for one clever upstart companion to trick you into meeting the condition and, 'Shazam!' Your a pile of bones.

Gulp!

Chuck