Questions, questions, questions:

// I'm assuming that the subject is willingly cohoperating //

1) There is a very heavy box that needs to be moved.
With RegoTerram (or Herbam if it's made of wood) I can move it.
With CreoCorpus I can become stronger...and move it.

What if I apply a RegoCorpus effect to a little child?
His Strength it totally unsufficent to move the box...but the spell is not telling his mind to "use" the body; it is moving the body through magic!
Can a Rego Corpus spell be used to make a man lift heavy weights?

2) Same situation, different task: RegoCorpus 15 tells me that I can "Quickly move a body".
How quickly is QUICKLY ? :)
Taking as an example the ArM4 rules for movement into combat a man can move "Hustling" of 15 paces + Quickness.
At lvl 15 RegoCorpus allows a body to immediately move of 50 paces.
Using the above formulae this will mean that a lvl 15 spell will make a body move as it had the equivalent of 35 points of Quickness o_O!
A more reasonable increase in Quickness may be "+1 x Magnitude" without cap...maybe?

My final idea is to develop a spell that makes the target move regardless of "load" and "encumbrance".
That should be accomplished on the principle that this movement is not generated by limited body-strength but propelled by magical force.

My problem is to find the specifics of this "magical force".

What if a weak man (STR -3)is manipulated, with RegoCorpus, to take and wield a BIG weapon, such as a WarHammer?
How much strength will his blows have?
How fast will his body move?

Obviously the Martial Ability and Finesse in use would be those possessed by the MAGE, because it is the MAGE that is manouvering the body :P

Also...
Weapons have an Initiative Score that represents both weight (sloooow) and reach (faaaaast).
But if an instrument is manouvered through REGO (or someone moved by Rego) the actual weight is of no consequence...it's magical propulsion, not mechanical/muscular force.
What would be the effects?
______________________________

Fly.
There are no flight spells...just unwieldy "levitation" effects.
Why?
Am I missing something?

From the Book: "Rego 15 = Move a target quickly in any direction you please"

Would a RegoCorpus spell let me fly?
R: Personal +0
D: Concentration +5
T: Individual +0
TOT 20 (25 for "Unnatural" movement)

EDIT !!!
"Body of the Berserk" < makes you move normally > regardless of physical pain and injuties and fatigue.
I was inspired by that spell ^_^

And another thing!

REGO and Magic Resistance!

So...MR works somehow like a "force field" that rejects anything magical.

Let's take a sword...if I attack you with it, it will pass MR and slah you.

If I move the sword with Rego...it will stop, motionless, forceless, useless.

But what if the WIELDER of the weapon is somehow "enchanted"?
Let's tink about a spell that (somehow) grants a great strength; the MR should NOT repell the sword, right?

For the sake of clarity I am going to break your questions into seperate email. Hopefully this will make them easier to discuss. Hopefully.

//What if I apply a RegoCorpus effect to a little child? His Strength it totally unsufficent to move the box...but the spell is not telling his mind to "use" the body; it is moving the body through magic!
Can a Rego Corpus spell be used to make a man lift heavy weights?//

I say yes. However this is a complicated feat. Let's say the box is right in front of the boy. You are making the boy, reach down, grab the box, hold the box, and then this is where it gets really hard.

You are making the boy hold onto the box when his strength would normally fail and force him to let go. Then you are making his arms move into the air, while he holds on to box that is in excess of lifting capacity. I consider this an incredibly challenging mainly because it's a nuanced execution of magic. Beyond that I would deem it possible. Expensive, pointless, but possible.

Chuck

//What if I apply a RegoCorpus effect to a little child? His Strength it totally unsufficent to move the box...but the spell is not telling his mind to "use" the body; it is moving the body through magic!
Can a Rego Corpus spell be used to make a man lift heavy weights?//

Sadly, (for the sake of a hearty debate) I'll agree with Chuck.

Using your rego corpus ability to move the body in the same way you might use a rego herbam spell to move a tree I can see this being done. You couldn't rego a person supernatural strength (that would be a muto spell) so I wouldn't use a guidline that just said "control the motion of a body" (unless it went on to say in an unnaural way, don't have my book here to check) but I imagine rego corpus could create a spell where the target feels as if an invisible giant has grabbed ahold of his limbs and was moving them about (possibly clumsily depending upon the finesse score of the caster).

//2) Same situation, different task: RegoCorpus 15 tells me that I can "Quickly move a body".
How quickly is QUICKLY ? :)
Taking as an example the ArM4 rules for movement into combat a man can move "Hustling" of 15 paces + Quickness.
At lvl 15 RegoCorpus allows a body to immediately move of 50 paces.
Using the above formulae this will mean that a lvl 15 spell will make a body move as it had the equivalent of 35 points of Quickness o_O!
A more reasonable increase in Quickness may be "+1 x Magnitude" without cap...maybe?//

Ok, first. I strongly, STRONGLY suggest you do not look at Magnitudes and divide them by anything. This is a hold over from AD&D.

As most of us know, AD&D works on a premise that damage is based on level and increases proportionally to the level of the spell. Based on this fact, people can decontruct a spell and determine a base level.

For instance if a FireBall does 50 points of Damage at 10th level one can assume that every level is worth 5 points a damage. Then if you wanted to make an 8th lvl version is would 40 points of damage and a 12lvl version would do 60 points of damage.

This is NOT TRUE in Ars Magica.

Many years ago Jonthan Tweet, an original author of Ars Magica discussed Incantation of Lighting. Creo Auram 35 lvl, damage is +30.

Mr. Tweet explained that Creo Auram 35 lvl is the MINIMUM level that needs to be achieved in order to generate the effect "Lighting Bolt". So if one wanted to create a lighting bolt that only did +5 damage they are essentially createing an unnatural lighting bolt. This means a Lighting Bolt Damage +5 would be MORE difficult than a normal lighting bolt and the Lvl of Effect would be significantly higher than 35th lvl.

I bring this up to establish that in Ars Magica it is inappropriate and often inaccurate to 'divide by' to determine spell variants.

So lets look at Rego Corpus.

//RegoCorpus 15 tells me that I can "Quickly move a body".
How quickly is QUICKLY ? :)//

It says move a target quickly, or transport a the target instantly 50 paces.

Clearly 50 paces is our Max. It also establishes tht transporting a target 'instantly' is different than 'moving ia target quickly'.
I believe this means "moving quickly" is less than 50 paces.

Rise of a Feathery Body shows up 50 lbs can move 'as fast as smoke" at 10th lvl (base 4).

Gift of Frog's Legs can move a person 25 feet horizontally at 15th lvl (base 10).

ABSOLUTELY NONE OF THESE INFLUENCE QUICK.

All these spell 'grab' a person and move them. If you want to change a person's quick you will need to use Creo Corpus.

From the written rule I would guess that Rego Corpus Base 15, "Move a person quickly" would likely move a person 50 feet horizontally. How did I come up with that? Consider that 50 paces is 150'. We know it can not exceed this and is likely a lot less as moving a body is more difficult than transporting it instantly. At Base 10 a person can be moved 25 feet. In general I often double measurements per magnitude increase (that's my rule of thumb), so 25'*2= 50'. Given that this is per round, that's pretty darn fast. However again, Quickness of the character is not changed at all.

Chuck

//What if a weak man (STR -3)is manipulated, with RegoCorpus, to take and wield a BIG weapon, such as a WarHammer?
How much strength will his blows have?
How fast will his body move?

Obviously the Martial Ability and Finesse in use would be those possessed by the MAGE, because it is the MAGE that is manouvering the body :P//

At Rego Corpus 10 you can control a targets movements. Looking at the rules you'll see Rego Corpus Base 10 manifests itself as Strings of the Unwilling Marinette. A skilled a lethal fighter you do not have!

I imagine increasing the level of the spell will fine tune the control you have over your unwilling target. And consider this, your target is unwilling, likely working against your magic in unpredictable ways. Given this, I argue that no matter how high the level the spell may be, there ought to be some kind of deterent to reflect that the target is not in cooperation with the controling magus. Even if the target is in cooperation with the magus, they target is not a mind reader and at best would allow their body to be jerked around. This sort of behavior again suggests somekind of penalty that reduces the effectiveness of this drone killer.

Taking into account the nuanced actions of making a person hold a sword, making a person stand when the load of armor should make them fall to the ground, the fear of unwillingly rushing into combat, I suggest a base level of 30.

+2 Voice +1 Concentration.

This will give you Rego Corpus 45 lvl, which puts it on par with all the other kill em dead spell. The Mage can use their Fin to attack. (I need to think about that more)

I don't believe a Martial skill comes into play because the Magus is constantly moving the target as a whole, not fighting with a sword.

I think Qik should be determined by looking at the speed of the spell.

Strength is a curious question.

Looking at Rego Terram spells one can see that a Base of 3 can move a crate (Unseen Porter)

Given your base is 30, which accounts for the brute force you are useing to move a body agaisnt it's will. Lets say the Base Str is 3. I would take 3- the Stregth of the target to determine the Str of your attack. This reflects the targets ability to resist the attack.

This is again, an inefficient use of magic. It's much cheaper to win the loyalty of grogs and arm them with weapons of quality. But if your thing is making people fight against thier will until they are dead, enjoy.

Chuck

//Fly.
There are no flight spells...just unwieldy "levitation" effects.
Why?
Am I missing something?

From the Book: "Rego 15 = Move a target quickly in any direction you please"

Would a RegoCorpus spell let me fly?
R: Personal +0
D: Concentration +5
T: Individual +0
TOT 20 (25 for "Unnatural" movement)//

Wings of Soaring Creo Auram mimics flight.

Rego Corpus
Gift of Frog's Legs is poor man's fight. I would use this spell as the foundation of a Rego Corpus flight spell. As you can see, it is again not the most effcient way to get around.

The Hermetic System allows for numerous solutions to problems. Some are cheaper than others. I play a Rego Corpus Master, but I do not soley use Rego Corpus. It simply doesn't pay to do everything with Rego Whatever.

Chuck

I'll clarify my idea :)

Imagine a sci-fi setting where a person is wearing a "power armour"...a powered exoskeleton that takes the cue from his movements and amplifies them with the power of idraulic mechanisms.

Now, imagine to move YOUR body like that...you just "hint" a gesture, and a magical force pushes you far beyond your natual abilityes.

No active resistance, one mind...

This way I (a weakling with Str -3 [to make an extreme example] ) would be able to lift and use the heaviest weapons, strike with incredible strength, etc...etc...
[altisonant adjectives come free ^_^ ]

It's not a Creo effect, because I'm not makeing my body "better".
I'm just PUSHING my body.

Same goes for the "speed".
If I can use Rego to throw an arrow...why I can't do the same with a human body? ;)

I'm trying to make a spell to "push me" around.
______________

Flight...
"Wings of the soaring Wind" makes you fly by generating very strong winds.
Not economic :P

Rego Corpus works by "simply" controlling the position of the body.
At lvl 5 I can move it in the open air...slowly and only straight up.
At lvl 10 I can move it in the open air...slowly.
At lvl 15 I can move it in the open air...quickly.

"Rise of the Feathery Body" has a base lvl 4!!!
"Gift of the Frog" has a base lvl 10!!!
That's why they are so limited...

If we want to be really really really sure we can say that we need a Rego Corpus lvl 20 instead of the "normal" 15.
I won't even use the "Unnatural" tags because the lesser effects do the same thing (but worse :P ) and don't have it.

20 + Personal + Individual + Concentration = 25 ... 30 at best if we add something extra just for the sake of it ;)

EDIT:
That's my first time with Ars Magica...I'm still reading the book :P
The speech about D&D and ArM systems was very interesting ^_^

///Imagine a sci-fi setting where a person is wearing a "power armour"...a powered exoskeleton that takes the cue from his movements and amplifies them with the power of idraulic mechanisms.

Now, imagine to move YOUR body like that...you just "hint" a gesture, and a magical force pushes you far beyond your natual abilityes.

No active resistance, one mind...

This way I (a weakling with Str -3 [to make an extreme example] ) would be able to lift and use the heaviest weapons, strike with incredible strength, etc...etc...///

First, again I don't believe a state of "no resistance" can be achieved. Rego provides gross movement, and nuanced movement requires a more difficult spell. No matter how nuanced that movement is, it will never be of 'one mind' with the user. While such a feat falls inside the Hermetic Limits, it is cheaper and easier to increase one's stats in the game. For that matter it's cheaper and easy to use Rego Magic to grab *the object* and move it around.

I believe I've mentioned that I play a Rego Corpus "Master". I have never considered useing Rego Corpus magic to force my body to pick up something I couldn't normally pick up. I imagine earning large bruises in the process and my character doesn't like bruises. If some thing prevented me from ordering a grog or apprentice to simply pick something up and move it without the use of magic, I would simply go "Darth Vader" on the object and move it with Rego Herbam/Terram/Whatever. To make myself do it is dangerous, expensive, and ultimately futile.

If you must use Rego to achieve your exo-skeleton of magical strength, I would still based it on the rough spell I outlined. Again, it would cheaper and simpler to increase one's stats or just go Darth Vader on the object that obstructs your path (use Rego Whatever to throw it at somebody named Luke).

//Same goes for the "speed".
If I can use Rego to throw an arrow...why I can't do the same with a human body? ;)//

Well because you can't. That is, Rego can't throw an arrow. Rego can grab an arrow and move it quickly, but as soon as the magic that is moving the arrow disipates the arrow loses momentum and drops straight down. Rego can move an arrow someplace and into someone, but it can not 'throw' or 'toss' an arrow. Again, the arrow will fall down with no energy behind it (because it never had any natural energy behind it in the first place).

Here's a question for you. If someone shoots an arrow *Naturally* from a bow, you use Rego Magic to grab it, then move it. When you 'let go' of the arrow will it still have the natural momemtum behind it? Hmmmmmm... (Do falling trees in the woods still make a sound if no one hears them fall???)

//Flight...
"Wings of the soaring Wind" makes you fly by generating very strong winds.
Not economic :P///

Rego Corpus works by "simply" controlling the position of the body.
At lvl 5 I can move it in the open air...slowly and only straight up.
At lvl 10 I can move it in the open air...slowly.
At lvl 15 I can move it in the open air...quickly.//

If others agree with me and establish that "quickly" equals 50' a round. If my math is correct that is *roughly* 5 miles an hour (depending on how you interpret a round).

I maintain that Wings of Soaring is a more effcient spell if you look at the max speed to Lvl ratio. That is, I believe Wings of Soaring is a cheaper way to fly. Hey, that sounds like an ad!

Tired of Rego Corpus for getting around the covenant?
Wings of Soaring!
A cheaper way to fly!

Chuck

I am not sure what you are getting at frankly...I play a rego specialist and most of what you are saying doesn't actually make a lot of sense to me.

Let us start with your child. You use ReCo to make him pick up a box that exceeds his abilty to lift. What happens...well he doesn't lift the box, if you continue to force this muscles tear, child screams in pain, ligaments detach etc etc etc. You can force the body to do things it would not normaly do but the consiquences of those actions remain. A person catches a sword in his hand...his hand is likely cut off.

ReTe or ReHe and the box moves by magical force. ReCo and you control the body BUT the body is the body there. Not your body, not the body of jack the bezerker but the body in question...if it is a child then well what you can accomplish is what a child can accomplish. Now then there are other ReCo which move the body by magical force as well...these are usually teleport or levitate. Flying is ReAu.

Rego is impossing your will on the world. It is control over what is there NOT doing unnatural things with it, those fall under Creo or Muto. But you get the natural effect.

If I use ReTe to lift a rock over your head and then release the spell you get hit with a rock that has fallen however far it fell. If I use a ReAu spell to call a lightening bolt onto your mage then the parma stops the Rego effect at your parma...unfortunately the parma does not stop the lightening bolt which is a few cm from you and is looking for something to ground itself on...any guesses who just volunteered? Why because it is a natural lightening bolt that I just happened to be controlling exactly like the rock. Infact lifting a rock over your head and putting it on your parma would result in the control over the rock failing at the parma but you left with a 2 tonne boulder sitting on your head. Squashed mage time.

That is the power of Rego. It deals with reality not magical constructions, or mutations. It is both powerful and limiting. But in the end it is control. Without something there to control you can do nothing with it. And your ability to reshape is limited to only what is possible in reality. I can make iron into a sword and parma will not affect the sword since it is just a sword, but I can't make the sword without iron in the first place so unless I am in a blacksmiths shop I am not sure how often one could infact do this. As compared to say Pilum of Flame which anyone can cast anywhere.

"If I use ReTe to lift a rock over your head and then release the spell you get hit with a rock that has fallen however far it fell. If I use a ReAu spell to call a lightening bolt onto your mage then the parma stops the Rego effect at your parma...unfortunately the parma does not stop the lightening bolt which is a few cm from you and is looking for something to ground itself on...any guesses who just volunteered? Why because it is a natural lightening bolt that I just happened to be controlling exactly like the rock. Infact lifting a rock over your head and putting it on your parma would result in the control over the rock failing at the parma but you left with a 2 tonne boulder sitting on your head. Squashed mage time."

Ok , i accept the Rego over the head with the Rock , Parma does not stop a rock falling naturally.
Placing the 2 tonne boulder directly 2cm above the enemy Magus , would require some fancy Finesse and/or Targeting (at least for Game Balance it should).
Placing the 2 tonne boulder directly in contact with the parma , should be like the tree morphed into an arrow fired at the Magus , it slides to the ground next to him , doing no damage.
Same for the Lightning Bolt , 2cm from the Magus , why should a Lightning Bolt , now unRego'd do anything to the enemy Magus , do anything but dissipate (grounding itself sounds a bit "Modern" , is it Paradigm to do so?)

Why is it so? :-) (Professor Julius Sumner Miller)

What you describe is an effect that TELLS the body what to do...then the body (with its limited resources) tryes to acccomplish the action.

My thinking is on different lines.

I'm aware of "the arrow exapmle"...as a matter of fact I'm COUNTING on it! ;)
The arrow is inert, it doesn't do anything...it is "pushed" by magic, very quickly, with enough strength to pierce throu many kinds of armor.
A little blunt rock (fist size) can be "pushed" so that it makes +5 dmage...that's a lot!

Imagine a human body wearing a tight ninja-suit...one that adheres to all the body.

Normally THE BODY moves and as a consequence the suit moves along with it.
Now just imagine THE SUIT moving, and as a consequence the body moves along with it.
In my project the "suit" is a rapresentetion of how Rego affects the body.

Imagine a puppet and the puppeteer...the puppet is NOT doing anything, its body is NOT using its capabilities.
THE STRINGS are lifting weight, moving around, etc...

Now...Rego can make the body "be in a way that it naturally could be".
My point is that Rego may/should ignore any other external circumstance.

The child example should be intended in this way:
the body of a child can "naturally" make the movements required to pick uo something and lift it over it's head.
With Rego I "just" mimic those movement...no matter what.

Imagine this:
There is a very heavy bag; you grab it but you are not strong enough to lift it.
Someone stronger comes in help.
You are still grabbing the bag when this stronger man puts his hand over yours and applies HIS strength.
YOU are lifting the bag, but YOUR body is not performing any "work"...an external force APPLIED TO YOU is doing it!

Now you can say "but my hand, trapped between HIS hand and the bag, will be sqeezed and feel pain"

That's right...BUT Rego magic doesn't work "over you" (so you are caught in between)...it works "in you" and "from you".
You will be undamaged, the same as if it was YOU applying the force to lift the bag!
They only difference is that IT IS NOT YOU that is generating the force needed to accomplish the task.

Finesse and Dexterity then are just a matter of skill...a Rego 1 spell will be totally inadequate, a Rego 10 may still be goofy and slow...but a higher level of spell WILL allow for an adequately level of finess in controlling movements.
_____________

About speed...a 15 level spell can allow you to move a body at 50 paces x round.
My problem was to apply THIS to non-movement actions.

If I can make my legs walk faster, I can also make my arms and hands act faster.
This practically equals (and exceedes) to what can be done with high scores in Quickness.

I was trying to quantify that so that it becomes playable by the rules.
A spell that makes you "stronger" but does not tell you "how much" in game-mechanics is unplayable and prone to abuse.
The rules ALLOW for it's existance and use...but if it's not quantified it will create problems.

Magic Resistance.

A sword moved by Rego will bounce off Parma.
A sword moved by Rego so that it can "fall" on target is unwieldy at best.
A sword in my hands will chop my target to pieces, regardless of Parma, even if MY BODY has been directed/pushed by the use of Rego.

That was my point ^_^

"Ok , i accept the Rego over the head with the Rock , Parma does not stop a rock falling naturally.
Placing the 2 tonne boulder directly 2cm above the enemy Magus , would require some fancy Finesse and/or Targeting (at least for Game Balance it should).
Placing the 2 tonne boulder directly in contact with the parma , should be like the tree morphed into an arrow fired at the Magus , it slides to the ground next to him , doing no damage."

No because everyone knows what happens when a two tonne rock held up by ReTe is removed if you are walking underneath it. Squashed mage. Parma protects against magic not mundane things and the rock is purely mundane...being there is magic...and I don't have to let your parma cancel it, I just need to stop concentrating. Sure it takes targeting but do you have any idea how big a rock that heavy is? Or more importantly how uncommon one would be? It's an extreme example.

A tree morphed into an arrow, well assuming you mean by ReHe shaped into an arrow followed by ReHe fired at person then what happens is a sharp stick stops, whatever, a few cm from their chest and falls to the ground doing nothing of consiquence. A tree thrown by ReHe at the mage would maybe be different (possibly the mages foot is traped by the branches or it obsures their sight or any number of other things). A rock would maybe again hit the mages foot or cause them to jump out of the way of the falling rock. This all depends on the circumstances or what the story guide allows.

All of this is different then holding the object over the mages head "Sword of Damoclese" style. There it is simply: heavy objects hurt when they fall on you.

There are other things you can do, for example, if I have a ReAu wind, which is hurricane force and has swept up several objects as it moves towards you, then though you cancel the wind with your parma, you don't cancel the objects be they dirt, twigs, or angry bovines as they are moving by natural means (the wind regardless of what made it).

"Same for the Lightning Bolt , 2cm from the Magus , why should a Lightning Bolt , now unRego'd do anything to the enemy Magus , do anything but dissipate (grounding itself sounds a bit "Modern" , is it Paradigm to do so?)

Why is it so? :-) (Professor Julius Sumner Miller)"

Simple answer...Story Guide says it works that way. Complex answer it works that way because that is what lightening does in the natural world. Nothing will stop the purely natural lightening strike from striking and if you are under it you get blasted. Hope you have high Auram. All my mage did was make it strike at you...and so it continues the strike regardless of other conditions. This is a spell that truely requires finesse and targeting.

Throwing a rock, arrow, person, ship, castle etc at the person with Re(x) stops at the parma as the motion is magical. The object however is not and falls to the ground (which in most cases is not a issue).

Rego is tricky to use offensively because of this fact, but it has its uses in that you can bypass parma since often enough the object is mundane. But on the other hand you can defend against this fairly easily if you are a rego mage since wards against whatever stop that pretty much dead.

Its easier to use Creo or Muto or Perdo do damage someone frankly but Rego while not as straightfoward can be surprisingly powerful. It requires more effort on the part of the casting mage though. As in you have to be sneakier and think a level down.

If the person has no magic defence it becomes considerably easier to use Rego to do things of course. But the same is even more true of Creo, muto or perdo.

"Magic Resistance.
(snip)
A sword in my hands will chop my target to pieces, regardless of Parma, even if MY BODY has been directed/pushed by the use of Rego."

Uh yes but well I don't see why you want to bother. ReMe controlling the swordsman for example would make more sense since then you use his skill at swordfighting. ReCo directly controling the person would give you a much reduced skill at attacking unless your Storyguide is a blithering idiot.

Better than you being chopped up and better yet when it is the guys erstwhile buddy that is now defending you but still ReMe would be better bang for the buck then ReCo. Well there is the horror effect I guess.

Puppet master spells are useful though that is true enough. But a MuCo(Cr) spell increasing your muscles strength or something would likely be more effective.

I think the question of whether or not motion imparted to something by a rego'd object is stopped by parma is not relevant to the poster's original question. (I'm confident the answer is, yes it is stopped. You can't rego herbam a spear and use it to penetrate a magus' parma because the long steel tip isn't moved by magic only the wooden pole behind it is.)

The original poster wants to move the body around using the force of rego magics, not the strength of its own musles. This idea is, in theory, the same application as "lifting the dangling puppet". just with much much much more finesse and a little bit more force.

This wouldn't cause and ripping of the muscles (as someone had said)but could cause brused hands (as someone else said). I would demand _prohibitively_ high finesse rolls for a caster to use a spell of this sort. The original poster might then come back and ask "well couldn't I just make a higher level spell that works with more precision?" and I'd have to, for my game, say yes you can.

At first guess (I'd have to look at it further to before comming to a conclusion) I think I'd throw a four magnetude spell level increase for the fine control on top of the base level of the spell (in addition to adjustments for range duration and target).

As far as an enchanted suit of strenthening, I'd allow it under the same rules.

Now with a four magnetude boost to level this does seem to be a disadvantagus way to do things.

If you can pull this off and your rego is too low to affect other things directly then your corpus would need to be high enough that it would be easier to simply do a muto corpus to get the strength.

Likewise if you can pull this off and your corpus is too low to muto corpus yourself some extra strength, it would be somewhat eaisier to rego the objects you want moved directly.

Naturally some story guides may come up with a smaller level bump than four magnetudes and this method may be more practical for their games. (heck, I might even be one of those storyguides, I said I'd have to look over the book again.)

likewise some characters may have a magical focus in moving bodies and this choice may be eminently practical for them.

There seems to be a lot of "you can't do that" going on here. I believe that this is more do to the combined effects of internet induced cinisim and fear of monty-hall-ism then an honest examination of the rules.

Incidently, if you muto the body to be stronger the sword it weilds would be able to pass through parma unmolested, which makes the muto corpus option even a bit more attractive in comparison to rego.

Well...

1) my idea revolves around "self-enhancement"...I don't want to control anyone else than myself ;)
Just character concept stuff, you know ^_^

2) a ReMe swordman won't be able to perform "incredible" feats of speed/strenght/agility :P

3) Creo guidelines to enhance a value of "just" +1 are ridicolusly high...thus useless to my purposes :P
Would a Muto spell be easier?
If so...please lay down a Spell profile and let's speculate on that ^_^

4) with RegoCorpus 15 I also get the power of "mobility"...I can move over ANY surface in ANY direction at a speed of 50 paces per round!
That's amazing and very useful in a lot of situations, even non-combat related.
Complete flight just requres some more levels ;)

EDIT:
Good post Erik ;)
Tell me more about how MUTO can increas physical scores ^_^
Make some practical examples ...

"The original poster wants to move the body around using the force of rego magics, not the strength of its own musles. This idea is, in theory, the same application as "lifting the dangling puppet". just with much much much more finesse and a little bit more force."

What he wants to do is listed in the post below yours and is not ReCo but MuCo or CrCo (for the most part).

I can throw a person at you with ReCo or I can control a person's body with ReCo. Those are two different things.

A spell that tosses someone (or levitates or teleports) is not one that controls the bodies actions. It just moves it.

A spell that controls the bodies actions does not move it. It just controls the bodies actions.

No reason you could not combine them...a spell which teleports you to my lab and makes you curl up in a fetal ball should be possible.

What he wants to do I would say is frankly not doable under ReCo. ReCo does not improve the body in any way shape form or manner. I can not improve water with ReAq or improve a tree with ReHe even if I can control the shape it is in or the location it is at.

What he wants to do is CrCo. He wants to improve his speed etc. Well that is fine but that is Creo (under AM5 it was muto under AM4). He can't move any faster using a ReCo spell then he can if he was not under that ReCo spell, he is no stronger etc.

I could for example make a spell that renders me unable to open my hand hence making it impossible for me to drop my sword or let go of a rope except that especialy in the case of the rope bit there would be damage to my body (assuming I was hanging form it). The same it true if you forced a child to continue to lift beyond his bodies capacity. Eventually the muscles would start to give out. Forced enough extreme damage would occur.

It is not that what he wants to do is impossible it is just that it is NOT a rego effect.

I used to have a spell ("The Gift of the Sturdy Lad") that gave a +1 to each of strength, endurance and quickness which is exactly what the person in question wants. It was a MuCo 25 spell (under AM4 rules, give or take 5 levels). But now looking at the AM5 book I see the spell it was based on is gone and bonuses to stats are clearly in the creo section.

If you want an improvement you are into creo (or muto if you are dealing with inanimate objects it seems). ReTe can sharpen a sword but MuTe can give it an unequaled edge (and hence a bonus).

(4) is of course possible under ReCo, no reason you can't give yourself the ability to levitate. Flying again is under CrAu(Re). I am not sure about walking up walls and so on (which seems the original posters intent), that would require a story guide's approval (I think) since it isn't in the list of things that you can do. Chekcing the rules lvl 15 does allow movement in any direction "quickly" but it not really clear what this means specifically (movement rates in AM5 not being defined)...I would imagine that is a bit like moving a doll around rather than the person running up and down walls and accros the ceiling but that depends on the story guide as the frog legs spell indicates other possibilites.

Edited 10/6/2005 11:31 am ET by PaulM152

Though you can throw wood (or stone) at high velocity you can't seemingly do the same with bodies. CrAu(Re) would work for that but apparently not ReCo directly, again it depends on how you interpret the word "quickly".

So though some of what he wants can be done with Re "force" it is not clear that most of it can be. And it would be a very odd application and frankly there are simply easier ways.

Edited 10/6/2005 11:41 am ET by PaulM152

Corrected a few (or more than a few) glitches caused by the muto-creo changes between AM4 and AM5 which I have not yet fixed in my head. Double checked the book as well to ensure that I am right on where these things now fall. Hopefully sorted out the other original glitches (and there were some).

//A spell that tosses someone (or levitates or teleports) is not one that controls the bodies actions. It just moves it.

A spell that controls the bodies actions does not move it. It just controls the bodies actions.

What he wants to do I would say is frankly not doable under ReCo.//

The absence of a spell that moves a body in a precise fasion (rather than just controls it) on the spell list is not in any way persuasive evidence that such a spell could not be created. Lord of the Trees (lvl 25 rego herbam) does a somewhat similar thing with plants. I see no reason why a "lord of the corpses" spell could not be constructed.

I'll whip up the way I'd handle it as a spell

Pushed with the strength of Giants;
Rego Corpus 45
Range Personal
Duration diameter
target individual

The caster's body is moved by magic with such force that the casters body funtions as if it had a strength of +6. Because the caster is not using their own muscles to accomlish tasks the caster uses ther finesse score to instead of such skils as athletics, swim and weapon skills. The alienness of this control gives the caster a -4 to all physical tasks that they attempt (essentially substituting finesse -4 for all physical skils).

base 20 (more difficult than "move a target quickly..." but not so much more difficult. I'm possibly being easy here)
duration +5
modifier for precision of movement +20 (I'm possibly being a bit strict here but it will make up for the laxity I showed in the base level)

//But the moment you want an improvement you are into muto. ReTe can sharpen a sword but MuTe can give it an unequaled edge (and hence a bonus).//

What he's describing is not an improvemet but a substitution I'd say that it is posible.

If you can rego an inanimate corpse/ tree limb / rock/ etc. into dancing a jig there's no convincing reason why you couldn't do it with your own body

//3) Creo guidelines to enhance a value of "just" +1 are ridicolusly high...thus useless to my purposes :P
Would a Muto spell be easier?
If so...please lay down a Spell profile and let's speculate on that ^_^//

this is a byproduct of the ability of creo spells to be made permanent using rituals, and the susequent removal of the permanent duration from ars magica 5. From a game balance point of view you don't want t t be easy to permanently up your character's stats therefore these spells chalenging.

A far as muto, I'd use the level 10 guideline "turn a human into a land animal" at range personal duration sun target indiviual to develop level 20 spells that could give you the body of a brown bear (see the book of beasts) on the atlas site or use target part (and raise the level to 25) to give yourself gorilla arms, rhino legs, or the shell of a tortise. (or develop 3 spells and grab all three)

"Pushed with the strength of Giants;
Rego Corpus 45
Range Personal
Duration diameter
target individual

The caster's body is moved by magic with such force that the casters body funtions as if it had a strength of +6. Because the caster is not using their own muscles to accomlish tasks the caster uses ther finesse score to instead of such skils as athletics, swim and weapon skills. The alienness of this control gives the caster a -4 to all physical tasks that they attempt (essentially substituting finesse -4 for all physical skils)."

In the end I would not allow it as you are violating what the rego effect can accomplish. You can dissagree with me but I see no justification for this at all. "Being moved with such a force" does not mean "your body functions with a strenght of +6."

"What he's describing is not an improvemet but a substitution I'd say that it is posible."

I would say it is clearly an improvement, he would say it is clearly an improvement as well. "superhuman speed" I think is the words he used.

"If you can rego an inanimate corpse/ tree limb / rock/ etc. into dancing a jig there's no convincing reason why you couldn't do it with your own body"

Nor do I. I just see no justification for an improvement to what your body could accomplish. I can control my own or someone elses body and force it to work at the limit of its ability but not beyond.

Paul :)
Don't take it badly :)
But I think that most of what you have sayed is...wrong :P

In ArM5 is it made very clear that to "become better" you need CREO.
It very clear and repeated many times.

ReTe can not "sharpen" anything, nor can MuTe :P

That sayed...you can do the same thing in many different ways.

To become physically strnger or quicker you can:
1) be a human body with "better" muscles = CREO
2) be an inhuman body with "supplemental" muscles = MUTO

But since in the Muto guideline and/or spells there is no mention of such an effect you will have to refer to the most similar thing...CREO.
If the Muto version is identical (regarding Levels) to the Creo version...it's useless...unless you are more skilled in Muto than Creo ;)

EDIT: Mutate into an animal with great strenght COULD not have the effect of boosting your strength.
The body is still YOUR body...if you are a weak human I can argue that just changing shape will make you a "weak bear" :P
A similar position was also supported in the unofficial (but masterfully made) Ars Magica FAQ.

And all this trouble just to get +1! :P

So let's talk about Flight.
Flight can be accomplished in MAAAAAAAANY ways:
1) MutoCorpus(Animal)...to get animal wings
2) MutoCorpus...to get monstrous flesh and bone wings
3) CreoAuram(Rego)...to create and control a wind that will "push" you in the air
4) RegoCorpus...to control your body position in 3D space
5) many others...

Every solution gets to the SAME effect at DIFFERENT level and with different cosequences.
Let's see the different Base Levels (BL) and effects:
- Both Animal Wings (BL 20) and Human Wings (BL 3) are VERY cumbersome because to lift a human body they will have to be HUGE.
- Wind (BL 5) is absolutely not accurate and very difficult to use indoors.
- Flight by "Telekinesis" (ReCo) is the most precise and reliable and safe...BL 4 is VERY limited, but the guidelines describe increasingly better performance up to BL 15, when you can move "quickly".

ReCo will also allow you to walk up walls or cailings or just "on nothing" because it controls WHERE you are in the space.
It doesn't make you "fly", it just moves you here and there as your will commands.
That's also why such a spell will NEED "Concentration", because instead of a fixed effect you are constantly controlling your position.
You can even "teleport", simpli controlling your "position in space"...you don't have to MOVE...you simply say < Now I am here...now I'm there >.

You can "naturally" be in any place, in any position...that's why ReCo can make you walk on anything, or fly, or teleport.
When using Rego magic, "position" does not matter at all, you just have to develope a sufficent level of mastery to overcome mundane obstacles (like gravity, weight, etc...)

Human Arrows?
Sure...level 20 or more (Level 15 moves a body "quickly"...I assume that 20 would be "more than quickly", thus enough to qualify as a "throwin item" ^_^)
Remember that Rego magic does not "throw" anything.
It GRABS the target...HOLDS it firmly for all the duration of the spell...MOVES it around with the speed and strength permitted by the Level of effect.

REGO-CORPUS magic is like an invisible hand that grabs you and makes you move as it wants.

Getting damage because "magic" makes you hold on a sliding rope or because it makes you lift too much weight are two situations that are totally unrelated!

In the rope situation you are suffering the effects of an "action" made by the rope...it slides, burning your hand.

In the child example, looking at the effects that you are describing, the "magic" in use will be RegoMentem!
You are commanding the BOY to do something it can't, so when he tryes to lift the heavy item he exerts his muscles...and eventually hurts himself.

If you use RegoCorpus instead you will be manouvering "invisible magic hands" that GRAB the boy and POSITION him...the boy is just a tool...the boy is NOT using his muscles!
"Magic" is moving his body..."Magic" is applying strength against the weight of the box.
Mechanical muscular force is NOT in use :P

//Though you can throw wood (or stone) at high velocity you can't seemingly do the same with bodies. CrAu(Re) would work for that but apparently not ReCo directly, again it depends on how you interpret the word "quickly".//

This is slightly off topic but I'll once again offer the opinion that, as far as guidelines, go absence of evidence is not evidence of absense.

I'm all for having crotchety ancient tytalus magi who use people as missle weapons

Erik
If you can rego an inanimate corpse/ tree limb / rock/ etc. into dancing a jig there's no convincing reason why you couldn't do it with your own body"

Paul
Nor do I. I just see no justification for an improvement to what your body could accomplish. I can control my own or someone elses body and force it to work at the limit of its ability but not beyond.

Erik (again)
but the tree limb the rock and the corpse are all moving beyond their abilities, what makes the corpus an exception?

//In the end I would not allow it as you are violating what the rego effect can accomplish.//

If you agree that were talking about a substitution rather than an improvement how does this violate what rego can accomplish?

// "Being moved with such a force" does not mean "your body functions with a strength of +6."//

The +6 is a detail I added, it is of importance to making a working spell and determineing the level of it but not of importance to the matter of whether such a spell is possible at all.

Do you, Paul, see a hard limit to the quantity of force that can be generated by rego corpus on a given body.

If you do is it because you interpret the spell guidelines as more complete than I do?

//The original poster wants to move the body around using the force of rego magics, not the strength of its own musles. This idea is, in theory, the same application as "lifting the dangling puppet". just with much much much more finesse and a little bit more force.//

I like Erik's write up this spell. The original author keeps imagine this spell working like a suit of armor, but I imagine it world more like a sick shovel.

You can use magic to grab a persons hand and beat that hand over and over into a stone wall turning it into mush. The author of this would-be spell wants to use Rego Magic to leap around, pick up things they normally couldn't lift, do all the stuff Iron Man can do.

I argue that Rego Corpus can achieve this MINUS the protection of armor. You can make his our your body do things it isn't capable of doing, such as scrape bark of a tree with your bare fingers, or bite your own thumb off, or hold a sword you don't know how to use and rush into combat swinging it at people. It would require incredibly high levels of Finesse and I think it would be incredibly damaging to the target, or should I call them victim.

This isn't armor, it's a human shovel. You grab the boy, you push him under a stone, you use his body as mass push against the stone and force it into the air. That's a shovel, not armor.

A GM that allowed a Magus to use Rego as armor rather than as a shovel is taking gross liberties with the rules.

Chuck

A practical example of my idea of RegoCorpus spell.

ReCo
R: Personal +0
D: Concentration +5
T: Individual +0
Base Level = ?
Total Level = ?

Now...let's search for a spell reference to help us with Base Level (BL):
- "Lifting the Dangling Puppet" is too limited...but it has only BL 4!
- "Jump of the Frog" is more like it but it is stupid due to it's Mmomentary duration...anyway it has only BL 10.
- "Awaken the Slumbering Corpse" and "Walking Corpse" are just what I need...they are perfetc...and they STILL only are BL 10 effects!

- "Endurance of the Berzerks" is BL 10 and it matches MY IDEA EXACTLY...the difference is that this spell only supports your body, my spell will also push it!
My spell is actually a "stronger" berzerker :P

Now, consulting the ReCo guidelinse we read:
- LvL 10
> Control Motion (ok)
> Ignore Fatigue and Wounds (very ok)

With level 10 I can do exactly what I intend to do.
The zombie created with "Awaken the Slumbering Corpse" has no mind and is actively controlled by ME through constant concentration...and the text does not call for ANY finess tests on my part!
Also the "Endurance of the Berzerks" spell basically applyes the same effect on myself...I'm makeing my body move as I will...ignoring crippled bones, severed tendons, pain, etc...and I'm doing it with any finess related problem.

But I want more...I have to get an effect that makes the subject stronger and quicker and almost flying.

Let's read the ReCo guidelinse again:
- LvL 15
> Move the target QUICKLY in ANY direction you please (lower levels already included vertical and unsupported movements into this definition)

Just perfect...I can do the LvL-10 things, but better.
So my spell will look like that:

ReCo
R: Personal +0
D: Concentration +5
T: Individual +0
Base Level = 15
Total Level = 20

But let's say that controlling my own body in the way that I want is not so natural, nor so simple (and I'm exageratig this, since I can already DO IT without any penalty :P ).

ReCo
R: Personal +0
D: Concentration +5
T: Individual +0
Unnatural +5
Difficult +5
Base Level = 15
Total Level = 30
"This spell makes the body act through sheer magical force:
- it ignores wound and fatigue penaltyes
- it is not bound by its natural speed and might
- makes the body able of walking over water, walls, ceilings and any other surface or "jumping" up to 50 paces high with a completely safe landing; the total movemnt per round can't exceed 50 paces.
A body can't sustain more than Size+2 consecutive castings."

Nice...but exactly what does it means "it is not bound by its natural speed and might" ?
I need to quantify...
The base level is 15...what can Rego move at lvl 15?

It can "quickly" move a "unit" of Corpus...meaning a Human Body of Size +1...described at page 192 as a "Big Human"...more or less 90Kg.
To "quickly" manipulate 90Kg how strong will you need to be?
According to page 176 a Great Sword requires +1 Strength to be used with finesse...how does a Great Sword weights?
According to a specialized website (http://www.thearma.org/essays/2HGS.html) the average Medieval Great Sword weighted about 3,5 Kg.

If I create a "sword" so heavy and cumbersome that it has the same weight of a "Big Human" I will require more or less "Strength=25" to use it!
So a lvl 15 RegoCorpus is able to make a body behave as it had Str=25?
It's funny how the DRAGON at page 192 has only a Str=8 :P
(But a Dragon also has Size=8...which means a lot!)
Is Str=25 too much?

Let's see this from another point of view:
- saying that I can "quickly" manouver 90Kg is good enough in most occasion; problems arise when I'm in combat.
- in combat STR is just a factor directly added to Damage...we can say that, in combat, "Str = +Damage".

Now I'll look for reference browseing the Book for REGO spells that "throw" something at a target:

The RegoTerram spell "Wielding the Invisible Sling" has a Base Level 4 and deals +5 damage with just a small fist-sized rock.
"Crest of the Earth Wave" has a Bese Level 3 and basically creates a flat surface that hits targets strong enough to cause +10 Damage.

The RegoAquam spell "Tower of Wirling Water" has a Base Level of 10 and creates a shot of water that inflicts, by sheer force of impact, 1d10+15 Damage!

The RegoHerbam spell "Dance of the Staves" has a Base Level 3 and moves wooden staffs with enough strength to cause +4 damage (plus the weapon modifier!)
"Strike of the Angered Branch" has a Base Level 3 and makes a branch strike with enough strength to cause +10 damage.

...different solutions to the same problem.
The Aquam spell used a LvL 10 effect to cause from 16 to 25 damages...with a liquid!
A solid thing (like the human body) can certainly generate enough strength at Level 15 to deal +25 damages...THAT would be a hell of a puch! :P

Thus the correct version of the spell should read:

ReCo
R: Personal +0
D: Concentration +5
T: Individual +0
Unnatural +5
Difficult +5
Base Level = 15
Total Level = 30
"This spell:
- makes the body act normally regardless of wounds and fatigue penaltyes (this may worsen the wounds).
- makes the body act as it had supernatural strength allowing the Mage to easily manouver a weight of up to 90Kg with no Load watsoever and strike for +25 damage.
- makes the body able of walking over water, walls, ceilings and any other surface or "jumping" up to 50 paces high with a completely safe landing; the total movemnt per round can't exceed 50 paces.
A body can't sustain more than Size+2 consecutive castings."

I decided to renounce any Quickness bonuses because they would be more "Reflexes" that "Speed" :P

For the sake of clarity:
I don't need +25 damage in combat...I don't even "want" it (I would have been happy with +5 or +10 :D ).
If you have a better way to quantify the Strength that a BL 15 ReCo spell can generate...pleas share your ideas :)

Comments? ^_^

EDIT:

Impact will damage BOTH me and the target...That's a good catch.
But "when" the applied strength become "too much" for me?

And what if I'm not bare-handed...but I use a sword?

//2) a ReMe swordman won't be able to perform "incredible" feats of speed/strenght/agility :P//

You have a grog who is a marionette, controled by Rego magics of a Magus who is at a distance. If you put this grog into combat with a grog unencumbered by the influence of rego corpus magics, I argue the 'free' grog will win. A free man will be faster than a puppet. Furthermore, the freeman can enter areas where the magus view is obstructed. At this point, the magus can't see/direct his target/victim and the free grog cuts him down.

I agree that Rego Corpus magics could make a grog faster and more deadly than a free grog, but I believe the levels needed to accomplish this are in excess of 45 lvl and therefore both inefficient, unpractical, and unacheiveable by most magi.

//3) Creo guidelines to enhance a value of "just" +1 are ridicolusly high...thus useless to my purposes :P
Would a Muto spell be easier?
If so...please lay down a Spell profile and let's speculate on that ^_^//

Rego will never increase the stats of your target/victim. Finesse alone will determine how well you hit someone and damage will be based on the level of the spell, not the grog/shovel you are pushing around.

//4) with RegoCorpus 15 I also get the power of "mobility"...I can move over ANY surface in ANY direction at a speed of 50 paces per round!
That's amazing and very useful in a lot of situations, even non-combat related.
Complete flight just requres some more levels ;)//

This was a rough guess and could be corrected. It's also not as fast as Wings of Soaring.

Chuck

Chuck

//I'm all for having crotchety ancient tytalus magi who use people as missle weapons//

But the target/victim MUST where a classic dunce/wizards pointy hat. The pointy hat offers a +1 to damage.

LOL
Chuck

In ancient Roman metrics 1 mile = 1000 paces.
In ArM5 1 round = 6 seconds.

"Wings of the Soaring Winds" makes you move by 40 miles x 1 hour...that is about 66,6 paces x round.
It is very good for long distance travel, but this spell is VERY unwieldy in "delicate" situations, and almos impossible to use indoors.

A ReCo with Base Level 15 will make you move 50 paces x round, flawlessly, everywhere.

:P

So...RegoCorpus is a magical "shovel".
That makes sense.

It's not a problem in non-combat activities, I can apply the magical force a bit at a time when I "levitate" or when I lift something.

But in combat I have to "strike" at full force to get any strength bonus...and THAT will be a great < shovel >...most likely damaging my body even if I'm not actively useing my muscles :P

That's a good reason not to apply "too much" strength.

How about this revised version?

ReCo
R: Personal +0
D: Concentration +5
T: Individual +0
Base Level = 15
Total Level = 20
"This spell:
- makes the body act normally regardless of wounds and fatigue penaltyes (this may worsen the wounds).
- makes the body act as it had supernatural strength allowing the Mage to easily manouver a weight of up to 90Kg with no Load watsoever
- makes the body able of walking over water, walls, ceilings and any other surface or "jumping" up to 50 paces high with a completely safe landing; the total movemnt per round can't exceed 50 paces.
A body can't sustain more than Size+2 consecutive castings."

It's a "berzerk" spell that makes you able of "non-combat" strength; useful but not unbalancing ;P

I have to apology to Paul on one thing...

Against what stated in the description of "FORMS" and many other places...MutoTerram IS used to sharpen a sword, with the "Edge of the Razor" spell :P

//How about this revised version?

ReCo
R: Personal +0
D: Concentration +5
T: Individual +0
Base Level = 15
Total Level = 20//

Absolutely Not!

My methods are slightly different than Erik's, but our conclusion is mechanically the same.

Rego Corpus Base 15 Move Quickly.

Look at the guidelines, they establish one can transport a body instantly 50 paces OR move a target quickly. Not both. I've defined "move a body quickly" as 25 paces a round.

Rego Corpus Base 15 Move Quickly (25 paces a round)

Accomplishing an effect does not mean one can also acomplish all the tasks below it. In addition to moving quickly, you want to be Iron Man. These ADD to the magnitude of the spell

At 4th lvl one can 'control the gross movements of a target'
At 5th lvl one can 'hold a target motionless'
At 10th lvl one can 'control a targets motions'
At 15th lvl one can 'control the flow of bodily energy'
After this no guidelines for influence over body are listed.

I'm going to consider 'control fine motor skills of target' as Rego Corpus 20.

Deft Hand of the Cruel Wizard

Rego Corpus 15 (move quickly)
Rego Corpus 20 (control fine motor skills of target)
Complex Effect +1
Base Level 40

R:P
D:D +5
T:I

I made it Diameter rather than concentration so you don't have to concentrate. That will make your Finesse rolls easier.

Rego Corpus 45

Target can move quickly (25 paces per round). The fine motor skills of the target are controled by caster. Substitute Finnesse of the Casting magus for all physical skill checks of the target. Targets body is propelled by Rego Corpus magics that have the equivelent energy of Str +6. Whenever Targets body is used to administer damage or move an object check for Impact Damage +6.

Opinions?

Chuck

"Against what stated in the description of "FORMS" and many other places...MutoTerram IS used to sharpen a sword, with the "Edge of the Razor" spell :P"

This isn't against muto, the blade in the spell description is described as unnatually sharp. Unnatural being the key word. (I'll invoke serf's parma again here)

For super strength and speed, I realy think that muto is the way to go. You can make your body unnaturally strong/dexterous/etcetera.

The guidlines aren't there apart from the guideline about changing a body in a minor unnatural way and the base levels for soak bonuses, but it's bound to be easier than Rego (at least if you take the interpretation of Paul, of Chuck or that I have).

Becoming a superman is tough to do as a magus, and I think that this is a good thing from the perspective of play. Physical combat is the provence of many companions and grogs. It is pretty easy for magi to outshine other characters most of the time. So for the sake of giving the players all something cool to do during the game it's probably better for the magi to cast spells rather than outshine the other characters as physical combatants.

What would be an example of "boost spell" based on Muto?
Will it be of 50something level like Corpus? :)

Anyway...I have 4 or 5 character concepts in mind...from the Mage obsessed by magical clockworks to the "mutant"...up to to this one, that you seldomly call Iron Man or Superman ;)
I actually envisioned it like a magically powered "Berzerk" (the basic idea came to me just when I was reading that spell ^_^).

I want to give him a BIG (unnaturally BIG) weapon and make it look cool.
Usually I'm more a political "shadow behind the throne"...but I can't always be that way, can I? :D

So...

// Rego Corpus 15 (move quickly)
Rego Corpus 20 (control fine motor skills of target)
Complex Effect +1
Base Level 40

R:P
D:D +5
T:I

[...]

Rego Corpus 45 //

I lost some passage...

I need lvl 15 to get the "boost"
I need lvl 20 to get "fine control"

I'm going to use lvl 20 because it's the higher of the two.

Then I add +5 because combining 2 effects is complex and +5 because the duration is Diameter.

Why Base Level is 40 and total is 45?
I counted up to 30!

And how have you decided that "move quickly" is 25 paces instead of 50?
LvL 15 allows for a spatial movement of up to 50 paces...if I cover them "sliding" 1cm from the ground, teleporting, running very quickly or whatever should make no difference...
Anyway I'm fine with 25 paces x round ;)

// Target can move quickly (25 paces per round). The fine motor skills of the target are controled by caster. Substitute Finnesse of the Casting magus for all physical skill checks of the target. //

Ok

// Targets body is propelled by Rego Corpus magics that have the equivelent energy of Str +6. Whenever Targets body is used to administer damage or move an object check for Impact Damage +6. //

First...why 6?
Why not 11? ...or 3?
I would like to know the rationale for that choice ^_^

Second...
Why I am supposed to damage myself when "moving" things?

If I puch a wall I _WILL_ hurt myself...that's for sure.
But if I grab a box and lift it...nothing bad happens!

Damage on my body would be caused by 2 factors:
1st --> impact; I'm not Iron Man, if my body suffers an impact I will suffer damage.
2nd --> shock; if in my normal life I have my body moved "too harshly" I can suffer various degrees of damage.

Now, avoiding impact is easy...I just have to not bang my head around :P

Muscular and structural shock will happen if I perform movements that are "too sudden" and "too harsh".
I would say that everything concerning COMBAT will qualify...dodging, attacking, etc...

But if I lay gently my hands on a door and PUSH, I should not suffer any trauma.
"Normal" manipulation of items and application of strength should not hurt me.

And where have the "special movemts" and "no pain" gone?
If I'm the puppeteer that moves the strings of a body I can lift them high, twist them, and generally make the body move in whichever point of space I like...keep it there indefinitely...and so on.
And I can move it even if it is full of cuts and bruises.

The guidelines are NOT a list of effects that you have to "choose"!
The guidelines are a "GUIDE" to show you at which level something can be possible.

"special movemts" and "no pain" are simple consequences of how I am manipulating the body...THOSE things will come with the "Rego Corpus 20 (control fine motor skills of target)".
The "Berzerk" spell works the same way...mine is just a more powerful version.

I'll also keep "Concentration" because of one thing.
I would prefer "Diameter", but the spell as I designer it:
1) DOES NOT require a Finess penalty to begin with; ALL ReCo spells that move a non-resisting body don't need it...why would I?
Look, again, at the Berzerk spell.

2) while other spells have a fixed effect, mine actively controls the body...so, unfortunetely, it NEEDS concentration; look for reference at spells like "Berzerk" or "Awaken the Slumbering Corpse" or "Strings of the Unwilling Marionette".

So I would see it this way:

Rego Corpus
Base Level: 20
R:Per
D:Con +5
T:Ind
Complex Effect +5

Target can walk and run on any surface (be it water, snow or a vertical wall) or jump as high as he wants as long as the total movemt for the round (counting also the distance jumped and used to "land") sums up to no more than 25 paces per round.
The fine motor skills of the target are controled by the Caster, substituting his Finnesse for all physical skill checks of the target.
Target's body is propelled by Rego Corpus magics that have the equivelent energy of UP TO Str +6.
Whenever Targets body exceedes it's natural strength to perform "harsh" movements (almost any combat-related action) he has to make a Stamina check against an Ease factor of 3+ the exceeding strength or suffer 1 Fatigue level (2 on a Botched roll).
Whenever Targets body is used to directly cause impact damage (Punch, Kick, Headbutt, etc...) it suffers the same amount of damage, that can normally be soaked.

How does it looks? ^_^

Ug. Your killing me here. I have a lot of free time, but this exercise in futility is starting to get the best of me. Having said that, "Once more into the breach!"

//What would be an example of "boost spell" based on Muto?
Will it be of 50something level like Corpus? :)//

Um. No. I'm going to talk about my spell. You want to ask another question, start a fresh thread.

// I need lvl 15 to get the "boost"
I need lvl 20 to get "fine control"

I'm going to use lvl 20 because it's the higher of the two.//

No.

You need Rego Corpus 20 is the minimum level needed to do 'fine control'. Rego Corpus 15 is the minimum level needed to 'move quick'.

This is just like the Lighting Bolt I cited earlier. The spell lvl listes for Lighting Bolt is the MIN Magnitude needed to generate a Lighting Bolt. A lighting bolt with less damage (that is an unnatural lighting bold) is a *HIGHER* magnitude.

If you want ONE spell to perform BOTH "Move Quick" and "Fine Control" it MUST be GREATER than Magnitude 20. This accounts for the difficulty of "moveing quickly AND Find motor control".

15 Move Quickly
AND (+)
20 Fine Motor Control
=
35
AND (+)
Complex Spell +5 magnitudes
=
Base 40
+ Dia (5)
=45

//And how have you decided that "move quickly" is 25 paces instead of 50?//

As I stated earlier, the guidelines establish equivelent feats at a particular level.
The guidelines establish that at Rego Corpus 15 one can:
Direct the flow of bodily energy OR
Move a Target Quickly OR
Transport a target INSTANTLY up to 50 paces OR
Ward....

The guidelines clearly establish that there is a difference between moveing a target and transporting them INSTANTLY.

I do not believe that one can grab and move a target at the same speed a target can be instantaniously transported. Earlier I provided more detail as to how I came to my conclusion, but I decieded that physically grabbing someone and moving quickly meant 25 paces per round.

Until I'm convinced otherwise, I'm standing by that position.

//First...why 6?
Why not 11? ...or 3?
I would like to know the rationale for that choice ^_^//

This spell is a subtle variant on Eriks spell. I think he made a solid spell, and I considered what I would have done different. It seems you either didn't read his spell or disregarded it, so I thought if I wrote a variant, it would lend support to the case that lvl 20 is just plain wrong.

Having said that, a Str of 3 is the Maximum a human can achieve. 4 and 5 are Mythic. 6 is possible, but it seems to be the peak for Mythic Stats. I do not know of a by the book character with a stats of 7 or more. So while it may be unofficial, I think a stat of 6 is as high as a stat can go. Consider it Warp 9. Warp 10 is unreachable. Stat of 7 is unreachable. Theoretically possible, but unreachable in practice. So like Erik I capped this spell at Str 6.

Personally I would like to find a mechanic that didn't use any stats at all because no matter how fast you make an arm jerk through the air, the Target's strength is not being used. On a gut level I don't think this spell should have stats or influence stats. However when I was thinking about determineing damage I thought the easiest way to get this done was to use something familiar like Strength. In my original write up I considered makeing the trust of the Rego spell impact damage. However writing the spell seemed cumbersome, and spells shouldn't be convoluted patchworks of "If Then" conditions. So I returned to useing Str to represent the damage the Rego Magics could generate.

//Second...
Why I am supposed to damage myself when "moving" things?

If I puch a wall I _WILL_ hurt myself...that's for sure.
But if I grab a box and lift it...nothing bad happens!//

I didn't clarify this point in my write up. Remember as far as I'm concerned this spell is a shovel, not armor. If you use the Rego magics to throw your fist into something I think both fist and 'something' should recieve impact damage. If you use your finesse and place your hand against something and lift it, then yes the damage should be less.

However consider this. Your hand is a handsandwich. You have a rock, your hand, and the Rego Magics making your hand push up the rock. Even with a Finesse roll to place your hand carefully on the rock, your hand is still pressing against the rock unnaturally and that's got to hurt. I hate contingencies, but here's one anyway.

If a Magus takes one round to carefully place the target next to another object, the target recieves 1/2 impact damage when pressed against the object.

This should adequately represent picking stuff up or useing a person as a floating crate. With impact damage 1/2ed most characters should be able to soak it.

//I'll also keep "Concentration" because of one thing.
I would prefer "Diameter", but the spell as I designer it:
1) DOES NOT require a Finess penalty to begin with; ALL ReCo spells that move a non-resisting body don't need it...why would I?
Look, again, at the Berzerk spell.//

I question if it's possible for a target to not resist spell. If you use it on someone, they simply go limp? Even when you throw them into combat? You go limp if you only cast it on yourself? Your drooling as do these amazing feats never flinching, never wanting to use your body? I think it's inherit that a target would resist this spell.

I stand my my conclusion that this spell is at LEAST Rego Corpus 45 lvl.

Chuck

Nice source of warping you have there, Erik

Personally, if the level is above level 25, it is better to simply rego the box around. ReTe10 moves a box as if it was carried by a Strength 5 guy, so....

Regards,

Xavi

Now I see... :)

Now I understand your reasoning about the lvl 45.
But at this point I think we are against a problem bigger than us both: Interpretation of the Book :P

If the book says "Bingo" and we give a different meaning to the same word...well...we can't reach an agreement :P

I'll tell you how I see things...maybe you have an argument that can make me change idea ;)
Read all that follows as "I read the book and I THINK that this is what it means"...

______________________
To use your example:
A lightning has a MINIMUM of lvl XX, so an "unnatural" lightning will be lvl XX + Y.
Fine.

But not in this case!
To make a comparative...let's say there is a FORM that:
- at lvl 4 you can generate enough electricity to stun a person on contact
- at lvl 5 the electric charge is stronger
- at lvl 10 the electric charge does real damage
- at lvl 15 you can finally "throw" a lightinig-bolt

If I want to "throw" a lightning-bolt that can just stun the target I don't have to add a lvl 5 effect to a lvl 15 effect, getting a lvl 20 effect.
Because in the lvl 15 the lesser levels are already incorporated!
So I will get my little stun-bolt of lvl 5 and add up levels so that I can get the "range" of a lvl 15 electrical effect.

YOUR lightning bolt example instead puts lvl 15 as the FIRST step to get an electrical effect...so ANY change to that effect will, rightly, be a "new" variant, something more difficult.

Likewise...
If I have lvl 15 as the FIRST level where I can "turn a human body into an animal"...then a partial transformation will be harder, not easyer.

Instead if the same effect is split into a list of progressively better versions of itself it means that the "higher" level is not the BASE to build up the spell...it's a refinement that adds some new features!

So...when I get to "moving a body" I look at the RegoCorpus guidelines and I see what I can do:
- lvl 4 ... move a body crappily
- lvl 5 ... move a body sloppily
- lvl 10... THAT is what I need...complete control of a body.
- lvl 15... that's the same, but better (quicker, finer, etc)
- lvl 20... that's non descript, but if I feel the need of "more finess" then that should do.

LvL 20 does not represent the abstract concept of "finesse", than can be applied to something else... LvL 20 is "Complete, quick and very fine control of a body"!
LvL 20 is the sum of all lesser levels, plus something new that they lacked.

Teleportation, you are right, is a different set of effects.
Just like in Ignem...heat is one thing, light is another thing.

But the "super-strength" and "super movement" are not other extra effects!
If I used a similar RegoTerram spell to hurl a rock I would not get "a fine marksmanship" with no strength to actially move the stone; I would get a very fast, very strong, very precise stone!

As you sayed "Quick movement" is not "teleportation".
THESE are two different effects that would NEED to add the Levels toghether...so I could be "fast" and also "teleport".

But "moving a body as a lvl 20 spell can do" encompasses all the nice things that a magus can do < moving an obgect >.

How do you think that the "Berzerk" spell works?
REGO can't shut down the pain and can't heal your wounds...so?
The "Berzerk" spell works just like my "armor", but without pushing the body over it's normal limits!

Tell me...how do you "normally" move your right arm?
With but a tought...better...you don't even have to think about it; you want it, the body answers.

How do you think that the body can work with broken bones, cutted muscles and severed tendons?
Because the "Berzerk" spell moves the body REGARDLESS of your body!

It's just that...Level 10...complete control of target body...period.
The rest, the extra-strength, the extra-movement...thery are CONSEQUENCES of how the REGO form works.

And abot that...there is no "sandwitch" effect.
I thought I sayed this before, but it seems I'm not the only one missing some posts in this long chat ;)
[I never saw the spell posted by Erik...sorry]

REGO is a magic that affects the target "itself", not it's surface.
The movement, the position, etc are not controlled "pushing from the outside".
That is a poor man example I had to make in order to visually clear my idea.
The REGO magic propels "things" from within...the muscles are inert, just like a stone or a wooden stick...and THE MAGIC makes them move and bend and dislocate.

Take a Big-Gim doll and move its body with your "magical" hands (another poor man example, sorry :P ):
- you can make it walk and run and fight even if it has broken parts, because your hands are controlling the body so that it "keeps in shape"
- you can rise it high over the table, or put it upside-down, or make it "moon-walk" :P
Because your hands are controlling the body and YOUR HANDS are not bound to follow the rules of gravity (if they are strong enough to lift Big-Gim ;P )
- you can "shake" the poor little Bog-Gim and "thrust" it here and there at "great speed", or you can make it go in Matrix-Like slow-motion, or you can make it grab a kitchen knife even thou a Big-Gim doll won't be able to sustain such a weight and encumberance...
Because your hands are controlling the body, moveing it around and forcing it to keep old of heavy items.

ALL THAT STUFF is the result of the application of just ONE magical effect...namely "your hands taking control" of the target.

Big-Gim "moves his arm"...the spell gets that stimulus and MOVES HIS ARM.
There is no difference between normal movement and a megically propelled one...there is no LAG...there is no "remote control"...because all the spells in the book makes it look that way.

Extra finess and added difficulty were all things I was factoring "to be sure"... but "by the book" they are not even remotely needed.
_____________

Now, to get a spell effect that does not messes with Stats we could make the spell more like the "Berzerk" one.

Just say that the manipulated body (that is YOUR body, otherwhise the spell WILL encounter substantial resistance) can lift up to X weight, that it can ignore X points of encumberance and that it can cover X distance in one round.
Extra sheer strength applicable to +Damage is NOT accessible because it will cripple the body :P

It is identical to "Berzerk", but the effect is "improved".

//Interpretation of the Book :P//

If your position is that the book can be interpreted in different ways, then we have no common ground on which to speak. This fact means we can never come to a mutually agreed upon solution.

Three veteran players suggest your propose is 45th lvl or higher. If you want to make it 20th lvl GO AHEAD. But the lot of us who have established common, will not agree with you.

//How do you think that the "Berzerk" spell works?
REGO can't shut down the pain and can't heal your wounds...so?
The "Berzerk" spell works just like my "armor", but without pushing the body over it's normal limits!//

Endurance of the Beserkers works by controling the flow of energy specifically fatigue.

The guidelines establish this is a Rego Corpus 10 effect. It has nothing to do with moving a person with magic.

If you wanted to use Rego Corpus magics to increase a persons Str or Qik by changing the flow of energy in a target one can do this. However, one is no longer grabbing the body and moving it around like a shovel. Now you are putting steroids into it for a lack of a better metaphor. Doing this would be at the risk of damageing the body (heartattack, muscle tears). I would require a Sta check to see if the increase in energy kills the person.

Do you see how controlling the flow of energy is different and seperate from moveing them about with magic?

//How do you think that the body can work with broken bones, cutted muscles and severed tendons?
Because the "Berzerk" spell moves the body REGARDLESS of your body!//

Rego Corpus delays the onset of Fatigue. It's a variation on controling the flow of energy of the body. It has nothing to do with a magical aura moving ones arm about, which has been the premise that we were originally discussion.

If you want Rego Corpus to change the flow of energy to make a person strong or faster, I argue that it is possible, but not as effective as other Techs can produce as the Rego Corpus version would be very hard on the body (like puting to much Nitro in an engine). Body go BOOM!

Given that we have invested 35+ posts discussing this, and you seem to have no interest in developing a spell that is even close to our suggestions I strongly suggest you make the spell Rego Corpus 20th lvl and go have fun.

Chuck

Please read the edited version of the message and then reply.

Thanks.

Erik
If you can rego an inanimate corpse/ tree limb / rock/ etc. into dancing a jig there's no convincing reason why you couldn't do it with your own body"

Paul
Nor do I. I just see no justification for an improvement to what your body could accomplish. I can control my own or someone elses body and force it to work at the limit of its ability but not beyond.

Erik (again)
but the tree limb the rock and the corpse are all moving beyond their abilities, what makes the corpus an exception?

Paul (again)
Well why should Co allow you to what any other cannot. If I cast ReTe to move rock I can do that but it is still rock it isn't better/harder rock, it is infact the boulder I pick up. In no other case can I change the substance...tree limbs bent under ReHe are still tree limbs, I can only make a tree dance a jig (or its approximation of that) because they are inherently flexible. I can't actually make a stone dance a jig though I can make it move and so "dance" but that is exactly the same thing you could do by picking it up and bouncing it around in the air while holding it. ReTe does not allow a statue to walk without a Muto requisite.

Yes there are times when odd things happen, skeletons and golems are those cases for example. But in essentially all other cases Rego works with what is there.

If I pupet master a child and have him strangle you, well then it is still a child trying this and with only a child's strenght. Control of limbs or the body is just that control. I make your arm punch yourself in the head. It is your arm, it is your fist, it is your strength.

If I pick you up and ping-pong you against the the floor and ceiling then the damage you take is determined by the velocity you move which is determined by the SG definition of slow and quickly and how much mass you have on you.

The only spell which is odd in this respect is Leap of the Frog Legs which is an old spell and so likely doesn't fit so well. It isn't clear exactly what the spell does though it looks like it is a "Flinger" spell rather than making you be able to jump better.

As Chuck said there is no suit of armor Re force involved. ReCo is control of the limb/body or else it is displacing the body spacially. Up to teleportation. But there is no force to tap into to allow the things that the original poster wants.

You could do what you want in your spell but I am not sure why you would want to since it is inferior to the base levitation spells but it would in no way change your strength, you could not swing a sword with a +6 strength bonus but you would have a +6 strength bonus to resist being tackled.

" Paul :)
Don't take it badly :)
But I think that most of what you have sayed is...wrong :P

In ArM5 is it made very clear that to "become better" you need CREO.
It very clear and repeated many times.

ReTe can not "sharpen" anything, nor can MuTe :P"

I won't take it badly because you are wrong.

ReTe allows me to: move a rock, throw a rock, extract metal from ore, reshape metal into an object that I know or even don't know though it is likely to be a crapy version of it, or change it in small ways (such as sharpening a dull sword) but it in no way shape, form or manner changes its nature.

If I want to change its nature...say make a statue walk then I need Muto. MuTe(Re) or ReTe(Mu) I am not sure.

Where the problem for me lies is that in AM4 changing the body, for example, was the realm of MuCo. I had a very nice boosting spell which actually was tapping into adrenaline and was balanced well. Now in AM5 it is clear that Muto does nothing of the sort and the spell I used as a basis for mine no longer exists even in Creo. Hence the game designers no longer want you to be able to temporarily increase your stats, apparently. So you are stuck with the Creo rituals.

You want to be superman, iron man or steve austin. Which should be possible but not with Rego based spells since they don't change the essential nature of what you are dealing with, nor do they create or detract from it. All they do is control it.

"So let's talk about Flight.
Flight can be accomplished in MAAAAAAAANY ways:
1) MutoCorpus(Animal)...to get animal wings
2) MutoCorpus...to get monstrous flesh and bone wings
3) CreoAuram(Rego)...to create and control a wind that will "push" you in the air
4) RegoCorpus...to control your body position in 3D space
5) many others..."

(1) no, MuCo(An) to change a human into a bird so you can fly.
(2) no, MuCo(An) to change a human into a human with wings, if your SG allows you to fly he or she is a nitwit.
(3) correct
(4) correct but this is levitating not flying
(5) I don't think so.

I would be easier to make a flying carpet then most of these things at the end of the day, or a flying boat even.

"Human Arrows?
Sure...level 20 or more (Level 15 moves a body "quickly"...I assume that 20 would be "more than quickly", thus enough to qualify as a "throwin item" ^_^)
Remember that Rego magic does not "throw" anything.
It GRABS the target...HOLDS it firmly for all the duration of the spell...MOVES it around with the speed and strength permitted by the Level of effect."

*sigh* See ReTe The Invisible Sling, and any number of other spells with Rego requisits.

Nor is quickly defined, though slowly is, and it is not at all clear that you can exceed "quickly". All of that is left in the hands of the SG. Yes you can toss people around with ReCo...a modification of the Leap of Frog Legs with no roll on landing would seem to be the way to do it. That is also clearly "throwing" since there is a roll for a safe landing.

"REGO-CORPUS magic is like an invisible hand that grabs you and makes you move as it wants.

Getting damage because "magic" makes you hold on a sliding rope or because it makes you lift too much weight are two situations that are totally unrelated!

In the rope situation you are suffering the effects of an "action" made by the rope...it slides, burning your hand.

In the child example, looking at the effects that you are describing, the "magic" in use will be RegoMentem!
You are commanding the BOY to do something it can't, so when he tryes to lift the heavy item he exerts his muscles...and eventually hurts himself."

No that is your definition of it not mine. I simply control the limb, or person. I could do that by ReMe in which case I control the thought processes of the person, in this case I skip the thought process and take control of the limb directly. I do not encase it in an invisible force field and force it to bend, I take over the nerves and bend it.

ReMe "Strangle Yourself" is a very different thing then ReCo "Unwilling Limbs of Strangulation" though frankly the result is likely to be the same to the person the spell is cast on.

The difference between ReMe and ReCo is that in ReMe the person wants to do what I want him to do. I change the motivation behind the action. In ReCo I could care less what the person wants I am controling the actions of the limb/body directly. His mind is his. But I do not change his body in any way and I work with the body as is.

A ReMe swordsman fights with his skill as he wants to fight for me. If I ReCo a swordsman then he should (assuming you have an on the ball SG) fight with my skill and and even that reduced.

But regardless I don't change the body any. If I lock your hands around a door knob of a locked door with a ReCo spell and then use another ReCo spell to move your body away either the door lock gives, the door knob pulls out, your fingers come appart or your arms dislocate and then tear off. Take your pick.

With Re(x) where x is neither Co nor An I am controling things directly but frankly using the general principle that you do things the easy way with Co and An it is a case of controling the limb not forcing it.

Your milage may vary and frankly in the end it is what you and your story guide agree on.

"//In the end I would not allow it as you are violating what the rego effect can accomplish.//

If you agree that were talking about a substitution rather than an improvement how does this violate what rego can accomplish?"

Because what you are doing is using ReCo to effect an external none living object. In this I start to wonder on at the least a mechanics level if this is allowable. You use a ReCo to make you stronger to lift a chest but then say that you aren't stronger but that the "Rego force" is actually doing the work. Well I am not sure that ReCo should effect a Terrum object for example. That should require a ReTe spell.

Do you see where I am coming from?

"// "Being moved with such a force" does not mean "your body functions with a strength of +6."//

The +6 is a detail I added, it is of importance to making a working spell and determineing the level of it but not of importance to the matter of whether such a spell is possible at all."

I agree with you but it was at the time hard to pin down where the objection was coming from. I see no clear indication in the rules exactly how much force you can exert with a Re effect. I would actually say that +6 is weaker then the usual force but what I would not agree to is that you have any access to that Re-effect-force while under its influence.

I hope that is clear.

Basically if you were under the spell you wrote I would say you would make all actions as normal (say opening a door or swinging a sword), but you would be moved along as if by a person with +6 strength. This would imply things like being tackled would be resisted as if your strength was +6, you could tackle things as if you had a +6 strength (though your grapple would be whatever it is).

Do you see what I mean?

"Do you, Paul, see a hard limit to the quantity of force that can be generated by rego corpus on a given body.

If you do is it because you interpret the spell guidelines as more complete than I do?"

There is obviously some limit as the levitation spells indicate that the rate of rise will be decreased depending on the encumberance of the target. So if you hit someone with a levitate spell and then three or four beefy grogs jump on him he might not actually lift off. At least I would think that is what should happen.

But the mechanics of it? Honestly I have no idea.

Also I don't see ReCo in its control mode as exerting a force on the body I just see it as controling the body. This is especially true as the spells include things like muscle spasms which aren't what I would imagine you would get with this invisible force armor concept.

I think I view what "Control of" means differently then, at least, the original person does and possibly you do.

Also at the end of the day a lot of his suggestions offend my sensibilites (mostly as a GM but also as a player) as they are fundamentally based on wanting something for nothing and seeing how one can twist things to accomplish that. Almost every effect he wants is either Muto, or Creo only flying is realy Rego. I would under my still AM4 tinted thinking say almost everything is Muto but looking at the rules last night it is clear that a lot of it now (in AM5) likely is Creo as well.

I am also fundamentally conservative on what I will consider acceptable, this is based on many years as a GM. I find that the fewer loopholes, exceptions, etc you allow the better off one end up in terms of long term stability. Generally the concept of balance seems to not exist here.

*shrugs* To each his own in the end, or at least to each his own Story guide...frankly that person's I rather pity.

I've no problem in accepting a spell of level 70 :P
But I have to see why and how the effects and modifications summed up to such a level ;)

The book does not explains in detail HOW "Rego" affects a target, so it is a point open for speculation:
- Paul thiks that the target "normally" moves useing its own devices, you just control when and how
- I instead think about a "magical force field"...something Telekinetic-like.

Depending on the version you choose the possibilityes and limitations of "Rego" will be VERY different...

Same goes when we have to decide the Level of Effect.
- Chuck gave one interpretation, bassed on a X example.
- I say that in this case the way of computing levels should be different...while being consistent with both the Book and the example given by Chuck.

That happens because:
1) I agree that adding different powers toghether should be handled as Chuk says -->
Power1(lvl-10) + Power2(lvl-20) = Final Effect(lvl-30)

2) I disagree in identifing some "things" as different effects...I see them as the different consequences of applying the SAME effect :P
That's why there is no "addition of levels" to make...the power is ONE, I pick up ITS level...and I'm finished ^_^
_______________________

But I have to thank you all because I had the opportunity to deeply analize my project and draw some useful guidelines ;)

I'm a Master myself, not in ArM though, that's why I look deeply at how a system could be bent and twisted.

I hate to say "NO" to players without a better explanation other than "Because I say So".
Game balance is a VERY important factor that MUST be granted if you want to play a long-lived chronicle.

That's why I try to find, in first person, loopholes and bugs...both in the mechanics and in the setting.

There is a game, SLA Industries, where a race with psy-powers has access to a VERY powerful kind of armor.
In itself it is a balanced feature...but at one point they can "absorb" that armor into their body...allowing them to ALSO wear another "normal" armor.
Rule whatever you want...the mechanics are on their part...even though that's a game-killer situation!

If you go to a player and say "No, because I don't want it to happen, because it's too powerful" you are putting a VERY bad precedent.
I am the Master...in game I am God and whatever I rule is right...but that attitude WILL generate long-term problems.

Instead of doing this I searched very hard and finally I found the "right trick" to save the game in the game-setting.
The player even ended up commenting "WoooW, how cool...I won't EVER dirt myself with a /normal/ piece of crap-armor!"

Here I'm doing the same thing just out of curiosity.
I'm new to Ars Magica so when the book tells me "You can do EVVVVVERYTING" (bound by the game-rules) I try to do uber-cool things, exploiting what tools the game gives me.
That's definitely fun, that's also definitely interesting and a perfect way to learn things.

I don't give a dam about "Veteran" or "Newbie" stuff...I encountered "veterans" that for YEARS got it all wrong (as the original game designer sayed ^_^) and newbies that were much more good at both ROLEplaying and/or RULEcrunching that most people I know.
(ROLE and RULE are unrelated...but both are important aspects of our kind of GAME ^_^)
So I learned not to judge just by "game age" or to trust something just because it's a long extablisced clichès ;)

And here I am, trying to pull the Superman trick in Ars Magica :P

//Erik
If you can rego an inanimate corpse/ tree limb / rock/ etc. into dancing a jig there's no convincing reason why you couldn't do it with your own body"

Paul
Nor do I. I just see no justification for an improvement to what your body could accomplish. I can control my own or someone elses body and force it to work at the limit of its ability but not beyond.

Erik (again)
but the tree limb the rock and the corpse are all moving beyond their abilities, what makes the corpus an exception?

Paul (again)
Well why should Co allow you to what any other cannot. If I cast ReTe to move rock I can do that but it is still rock it isn't better/harder rock, it is infact the boulder I pick up. In no other case can I change the substance...tree limbs bent under ReHe are still tree limbs, I can only make a tree dance a jig (or its approximation of that) because they are inherently flexible. I can't actually make a stone dance a jig though I can make it move and so "dance" but that is exactly the same thing you could do by picking it up and bouncing it around in the air while holding it. ReTe does not allow a statue to walk without a Muto requisite.//

The tree can be made to dance a jig because the tree limbs are inherently flexible (like the human body). But the tree limbs do not have muscels to move on their own.

When you levitate a body I imagine that it is moved by some force (I can imagine a magical cosmology where it isn't but I don't think that this is where our difference in opinion is). If you had a target part version of lifting the dangling puppet that only acted upon the targets left foot this force would apply to a more limited area of the target, would you have a problem if the spell only affected the little toe of the target (ouch).

Given this, I don't see how I can deny the possibility of rego forced movement.

The original poster is clealy trying to get more benefit from a low level spell than is warranted. But this doesn't mean that his idea is unworkable. It's just not implimented in a way that I approve of (or that is consistant with the intention o fthe guidlines)

//If I pupet master a child and have him strangle you, well then it is still a child trying this and with only a child's strenght. Control of limbs or the body is just that control. I make your arm punch yourself in the head. It is your arm, it is your fist, it is your strength.//

In the example of my spell and Chuk's spell the situation is more akin to a marionette master moving a puppet. It is not the strength of the puppet it is the strength beig exerrted through the cords.

Am I right in saying that it is your opinion that such a force is not possible under the system?

If so we understand each other in this matter (unless I've been unclear) and it's time for us to move on to a new subject.

Erik
"//In the end I would not allow it as you are violating what the rego effect can accomplish.//

Paul
If you agree that were talking about a substitution rather than an improvement how does this violate what rego can accomplish?"

Because what you are doing is using ReCo to effect an external none living object. In this I start to wonder on at the least a mechanics level if this is allowable. You use a ReCo to make you stronger to lift a chest but then say that you aren't stronger but that the "Rego force" is actually doing the work. Well I am not sure that ReCo should effect a Terrum object for example. That should require a ReTe spell.

Do you see where I am coming from?

Erik (again)

I think so but look at this situation;

Suppose I have a wooden crate filled with gerbils. I now rego herbam the wooden crate across a room by levitation, don't the gerbils get moved as well? Would you require an animal requisite?

How is this differnt from my spell?

Paul

"Also I don't see ReCo in its control mode as exerting a force on the body I just see it as controling the body. This is especially true as the spells include things like muscle spasms which aren't what I would imagine you would get with this invisible force armor concept."

Erik
This strikes to the heart of why we've been disagreeing.

Paul

"Also I don't see ReCo in its control mode as exerting a force on the body I just see it as controling the body. This is especially true as the spells include things like muscle spasms which aren't what I would imagine you would get with this invisible force armor concept."

Erik
This strikes to the heart of why we've been disagreeing.

Paul
I would agree with you it is exactly where we disagree.

And no moving a box filled with Gerbils is ReHe only, no requisit since you move the box (the gerbiles moving are a side effect of the box moving). If you were to teleport the box though...hmmm...in this case it could be easily argued that the box only moves the gerbiles remain behind. I'm not sure which way I would come down on that one.

The difference between ReHe "The Quest for the perfect possition of the furnishings of the female magus" and the ReCo "Moving under the influence of Giants" is little or great depending on one thing.

Can you hold the box?

If you can hold the box then fine, you hold the box and you and the box are moved (the box moving like the above gerbiles is a side effect). I have 0 problem with that. If on the other hand you say you can't hold the box but that the ReCo spell is holding the box then I cry foul.

So if the box is something that you can hold, and here I mean that it is not so heavy that bascially your arms dislocate and tear off before it slides, then the spell works.

This is exactly the same thing though as the existing spells.

What the other person wanted to do was create a ReCo exo-skeleton and that I think is not as intended by the game designers.

"Nice source of warping you have there, Erik"

Actually you don't take warping from powerful effects if the spell was specifically designed foryou or if you are casting it upon yourself (you'd still take long term exposure warping if applicable).

// If I use a ReAu spell to call a lightening bolt onto your mage then the parma stops the Rego effect at your parma...unfortunately the parma does not stop the lightening bolt which is a few cm from you and is looking for something to ground itself on...any guesses who just volunteered? //

If you want to Call Lightning like the spell of that name from a certain other game, you are creating a thunderbolt, and that is CrAu. The bolt is magical, and requires a sufficiently high penetration to get through a parma.

But it looks like you're trying to do something much more difficult: to catch a natural lightning bolt while it's in flight, and direct it at a chosen target. Considering the time it takes for lightning to strike compared with the casting time for a spell, this would normally be impossible. If you succeed, though, the lightning will still be unable to penetrate a sufficiently strong parma, because it's magically controlled. Remember magic resistance does not dispel magic, it repels it. If you magically animate a whip and try to flog a mage with it, the lash won't touch him, but the spell won't end either, and it'll be the same with lightning.

In order to do what you've described, you would need to wait for a flash of lightning, then cast your ReAu before it strikes, move it so it's poised above the target, and cancel the spell, all in the split second before it expires naturally. Once you do that, the lightning will then strike ... something. Roman and medieval thunderbolts were omens of divine displeasure, not electrostatic phenomena, and I know where I'd aim it if I were SG.

*shrug* Our story guide was the person who came up with this not me.

But in the end I had at least one spell that controlled weather. The bolt is natural the control is not, the control ends at your parma the bolt does not.

Catching a natural lightening bolt is no more difficult than catching a wind or forcing storm clouds to rain now rather than in 2 hours or teleporting someone 7 leagues or any other action that a spell accomplishes.

5e makes it clear that if you hurl a slingstone using Rego to move it, then the magical motion is stopped at your Parma and the slingstone is then free to affect you - but only without its motion.... rather soft really. The example of a magical slingstone shows this is an effective protection; a further example of a magically hurled 10-ton boulder would still (softly) place the boulder in direct contact with the target and then release it, where the 10-ton weight may cause considerable problems.

from that I conclude that if you use Rego to draw-down natural lighting from the clouds, that the Lightning-bolt's motion is stopped just a short distance from the target. I suspect that Mythically, Lightning Bolts are literally bolts hurled by the clouds (in a sort-of-solid fashion, like an Auram "spear"), so that stopping the bolt in its tracks like this leaves the bolt unmoving (and disappearing after a flash) and the target is unscathed.

If you choose to take a modern view that the bolt is self-propagating and will take up its regular motion once the magic lets up, then it will indeed restart and fry the target.

(A CrAu Lightning bolt is wholly magical and is blocked in its entirety)

What if only Part of the object is enchanted, e.g.:

Magus A applies a ReHe on the Part of a spear around the grip and moves the spear through Magus B. When the Parma is stopping the ReHe effect, 1 foot of the spear is already protuding on the other side of Magus B.

(One of the few useful applications of the Target Part I can think of.)

These are points I used to fiddle with and I caused my table top troupe at least one night of headaches.

Talismans establish that the item as a whole becomes one unit when opened. This would suggest the wood spear would be resisted.

Now if someone simply made an enchanted arrow, and slapped it on the closest available wood shaft, then I would rule that the wood shaft is not affected by Parma Magica. This is because it's not apart of the enchantment, even if it's carrying an enchanted item.

Of course I could be wrong, but that's my stab at this one. Get it?

Oh, it's been a long day...

Chuck

//What if only Part of the object is enchanted, e.g.:

Magus A applies a ReHe on the Part of a spear around the grip and moves the spear through Magus B. When the Parma is stopping the ReHe effect, 1 foot of the spear is already protuding on the other side of Magus B. //

I'd say that hte motion is magical and the spear is therefore stopped (the same argument as the iron man spell user from the opening of this thread using a sword).

Well one way around this is to be fairly sneaky about what the Rego effect is doing...

Arrow of Mage Slaying

Take one standard arrow, add a piece of hair or fingernail clipping from the mage you wish to slay to a glue and then attach last flight feather using said glue. Enchant arrow with an increased accuracy (the arrow itself does not move but is just more accurate). The effect of the spell is to ensure the arrow hits the target. Give arrow to your friendly longbowman Rob'n dy Hudd and say "Fire at the creep in the cloak."

Taget has no parma arrow automatically hits and target suffers a grevious wound. Target has parma and spell penetrates the parma see above. Target has parma accuracy is canceled Rob'n makes an attack roll with a bonus and we see what happens.

In principle this should work since the magic the parma is "keeping away" is the targeting effect the movement is purely by the bow.

I'm not sure how serious I would be with this as it is starting to look seriously rules lawyer-ish and that defeats the purpose for the most part.

Any spell that enhances accuracy , still needs to penetrate Parma , as this is a 'detect' spell , imo.
How does Rego make something 'more accurate'?
Should at least need a targeting roll.
Unless the spell enhances the stats of the archer , in which case the arcane connection to the enemy magus is no help.
There is no such thing as a "detect parma" spell , or if there were , it still has to penetrate the parma to 'detect' it.
You cant put the "cursed shield of missile attraction" (rego , attract arrows) behind a mage and shoot at the shield , because the attract effect still has to penetrate parma.
If it doesnt , the arrows curve around the mage to hit the shield.

Mages are (afaik) extremely careful not to leave bits of themselves (hair , fingernails) lying around to be used as arcane connections.
It was suggested (somewhere) that a Perdo Corpus spell would take care of this.

//Talismans establish that the item as a whole becomes one unit when opened. This would suggest the wood spear would be resisted.

Now if someone simply made an enchanted arrow, and slapped it on the closest available wood shaft, then I would rule that the wood shaft is not affected by Parma Magica. This is because it's not apart of the enchantment, even if it's carrying an enchanted item.//

Sorry, slappy wording:
What if only Part of a mundane object is under the influence of a spell?

E.g.: Magus A applies a ReHe spell on the Part of a spear around the grip and uses the spell to move the spear through Magus B. When the Parma is stopping the ReHe effect, 1 foot of the spear is already protuding on the other side of Magus B.

//I'd say that the motion is magical and the spear is therefore stopped (the same argument as the iron man spell user from the opening of this thread using a sword).//

// Arrow of Mage Slaying...//

P85: Things moved by magic can cross the resistance, but their motion cannot, ...

The questions are:
Is the motion of something moved by a "thing moved by magic" magical?
Is the natural motion of a thing magical after it was magically influenced (e.g. redirected)?

And another one (not Rego):
Is the heat of a thing heated by a magical flame magical?

And what is the penetration of the indirect effect?

Hmmm,

Re-reading the question I now understand it.

So lets use a dagger to be specific. A dagger has two parts. The metal blade, and a wood handle.

If you use Rego Herbam "Part" to grab the *only* the handle, can the metal blade successfully stab a magus?

I reluctantly have to say... yes?

I would love to be wrong on this one, but if a magical 'part' is pushing a non magical 'part' into Parma Magica, I don't see why or how Parma Magica can ward off the non-magical element. Yikes!

This is a variant on the questions we've discussed because if this position is true (that the metal blade can stab the magus), then one needs to establish how skillful is this blade?

Rego is clearly the Technique needed to swing the dagger, but what does it take (in terns of Magnitude) to give this dagger the accuracy and swiftness of a Ray Harryhausen monster? I'm not suggesting this Magnitude is high, but does that accuracy translate into combat stats codifying Rego's limits, or does it translate into an autohit and predetermined damage?

This was my 'crisis' with the marrionette spell. Practically speaking, it was simplest to give Rego character stats, but I don't feel these stats accurately represent what is occuring. That's why I suggested impact damage as an attempt to side step the premise that Rego is equal to Strength.

Chuck

//I would love to be wrong on this one, but if a magical 'part' is pushing a non magical 'part' into Parma Magica, I don't see why or how Parma Magica can ward off the non-magical element. Yikes!//

I think that you are wrong, as was previously posted;

P85: Things moved by magic can cross the resistance, but their motion cannot, ...

I believe that hte motion is magical and thus resisted. This is the sam situation as the mage in the iron man spell. The motive force is magical.

This is the same reason why weilding the invisible sling is resisted.

I'd submit that this sort of a tactic could be use to apply a burning torch to a parma'd backside, it just couldn't do it with any force.

Ok, I agree!

Yes, in the examples provided it details, "A jet of normal water driven by magic reaches the magus and makes her wet, but has no force of impact, as the magical power can not pass her resistence."

This is a great question because it is counter intuitive to what 'makes sense'.

If you take a 20' tree and divide it into three parts, Branches, trunk, roots. If you use Rego Herbam Target PART to grab the roots, you can essentially move the whole tree.

If this tree is in motion, and the branches 'brush/stab'a Magus with Parma Magica one could think this part of the tree is mundane, it is not magical and so Parma Magica doesn't apply. The mundane tree, being pushed by a magic force that is maybe 14' away, has yet to cross Parma Magica. Therefore common sense says, the mundane part of the tree can still move stabbing the magus.

This is Mythic Europe and the game doesn't play 21st Century physics. "Things moved by magic can cross the resistance, but their motion cannot, unless the spell penetrates the magic resistance."

Even though the 'branches' and 'trunk' are mundane their motion is magical. Specifically, if the magical motion of the roots didn't exist, the 'branches' and 'trunk' would have no motion of their own. That is, the motion of the mundanes parts is not seperate from the motion of the magically controled part. Thus the above hold trues. "Things moved by magic can cross the resistance, but their motion cannot..."

So the branches touch (like the in the water example), but there is no motion (so they can not stab).

Whew! I hate loopholes!

Chuck

>> ReTe can not "sharpen" anything, nor can MuTe :P

That's interesting.

Where did you read this?

Wouldn't ReTe naturally sharpen something that has a sharp edge, such as a sword?

> Wouldn't ReTe naturally sharpen something that has a sharp edge,
> such as a sword?

Yes: if a crafter can do it with tools, you can do it with Rego magic and Finesse.