I noticed that almost all spells presented in the book (5th) have a very narrow and specific effect.

I wondered if it was possible to create a spell with an "open ended" effect that would allow to mimic the Vampire Discipline of Vicissitude.

For those who might not know...Vicissitude allowed the user to freely manipulate and reshape and "skulpt" his body.

I would like to make a spell (supposedly a MutoCorpus one)with a Diameter duration that may allow me, for all the duration of the spell, to do just the same thing.
To "move" and "reshape" my bones and flesh.

(I know it may not be the most effective use of Hermetic Magic...but it would be uber-cool! ;D )

Hermetic Magic is based on the premise that is formulaic. That means particular set of actions will consistently produce a specific result.

It's like following a recipe. One cup flour, one cup water, blah blah blah: Cake!

Variants produce Cup Cakes, or Bannana Bread, or even Burnt Yucky.

However, flour, water, and blah blah blah, will never produce Daisies.

Some results are simply beyond the scope of the material you bring to the project.

Projects whose goal are less specific, or should I say 'more fluid' are possible, but appropriately more difficult.

It's possible to use Imagonem to make yourself look like another one person. It's also possible to make yourself look like several people. And still possible to make yourself look like any body as many times as you like in a single day. Each feat is possible and more difficult than the next.

It is possible for Muto Corpus to reshape the body, to reshape it again, or to keep it in a stat of flux capable of changing as the Magus likes.

It's possible because it doesn't break, it doesn't even challenge the Limits of Hermetic Magic.

Having said this, I believe it would be difficult to do. It would be cheaper to use imagonem to achieve the same result (look different) with out changing your body.

Hermetic Magic, is cleary versitale, but not every element of every game can be recreated under the established parameters of the game. Of course if you like you can toss the standard rules of Ars out and do as you like, it's your game. For example, Ars Magica has no Wish, but that won't stop me from using a Wish if I want to. There simply isn't any mechanics for it, and I'm ok with that.

I once had a player who wanted to use Corpus magic to allow himself to appear as if he were a vampire. That is, no heart beat, cold, essentially undead, though in fact he wasn't. I don't think this break any Hermetic Limits, but I never figured it out under the guidelines of Corpus. By the book, I just don't think it can be done. Under the imagonem guidelines it's quite easy to look undead. But this wasn't want satisfactory to the player, he wanted to be "undead, but not" via Corpus magic. I enjoy these challenges, but there has to be limits. It's the same reason I don't allow players to have 'shadow magic' in the game. I'll allow for it to exist *in theory*, but the Hermetic System and the mechanical rules of Ars Magica has no way to account for such things. Ars isn't vampire and it's not obligated to mimic all the effects of other role playing games. If you want to run things 'by the book', accept the compromise and do what you can (which is still a lot). If you don't like the compromise, flush the rules down the toilet and have fun doing what you like.

I suspect that Viscissitude would be Muto Corpus with Requisites to account for changing your body into 'stuff' (terram for swords, herbam for chairs, whatever). It's possible, it's expensive, it's likely overkill, but do what you like. Having said that Vicissitude is a pretty sweet power.

I'm a big fan of the Methusela, Michael who used vicissitude (I think) to change his body to stained glass, and incorporated himself into one of the Churches in Constantinople. I used him my game. When I explained to the characters that he was a vampire that reshaped his body into stained glass and lived as apart of church, I had to explain it twice. Both times I failed. Then I simply handed them to book and had them read the characters description. Nearly every player said the same thing. "You mean he IS the stained glass?!? You mean he's APART of the church?!?"

It was a bonfide epiphany as the characters reevaluated the scope, depth, and possiblities of magic. It is one of my favorite moments, because upon comprehending what I was trying to say everybody crapped their pants and ran away. GM's don't get many of those. LOL

Chuck

Edited 10/5/2005 9:29 pm ET by Tuura

I like to d things "into" the boundaries of the official rules.
It's like a challange ^_^
Then...surely...I can change the rules :P
______________

My usese of Vicissitude are generally more "gross" tan just looking like someone else ;P
For that, you are perfectly correct, I would use Imaginem ^^

But your answer is quite complete...I figure that YES, I can...it will fall under the MutoCorpus lvl 3 (Utterly change shape and size) with maybe "Unnatural" or even "very Unnatural" ...
LvL 5 may be the base for any such change if I want to strengthen the body so that I can also use it as a weapon (LvL 5 = +1 Soak).

So..."just" reshaping my body to perform many useful tasks will be:
MutoCorpus LvL 3
R: Personal +0
D: Concentration / Diameter +1
T: Individual +0
Unnatural or Very Unnatural
TOT = 5 (unnatural) or 10 (Very Unnatural)

Instead if I want to use myself as a weapon using bone-swords and the like:
MutoCorpus LvL 5
R: Personal +0
D: Concentration / Diameter +5
T: Individual +0
Unnatural or Very Unnatural
TOT = 15 (unnatural) or 20 (Very Unnatural)

That's good...the first formulae is PERFECT for the needs of my Deidne "spontaneous" magician.
The second formulae can be one of his formulaic spells...a more advanced and refined version ;)
_________________

Shadow Magic?
I suppose the target is "Obtenebration" :P

MmMm...I would make it a MutoIgnem(Perdo) or PerdoIgnem(Muto) ^_^
It will basically manipulate the "absence of light" so that it can take any form, shape and behaviour.
[LvL 1 and 2 of the discipline]
Maybe, with something like an Aquam requisite, it can be made corporeal enough to mimic the slimy tendrills made of darkness (liquid absence of light? o_O'' )...
[Lvl 3 of the discipline]
MutoCorpus(Aquam) will be needed to change the body into the "Dark Form" of level 4...and MutoCorpus(Auram) to take on the "Shadow Form" of level 5.

Or maybe just add an "Unnatural PerdoIgnem" requisite to any effect...that would mean a basic +3 Magnitude to any effect just to make it out of "living shadows" :P

We've discussed Shadow Magic in the past. I shouldn't have brought it up. In terms of color, it's simple to say a Magus works magic, and it appears as if shadows do it (but they don't).

I was thinking of grabbing/damageing someone via their shadow. This can't be done in Ars. It's just outside the mechanics/paradigm of the game. I'm ok with this. Ever power from every game doesn't have to fit into Ars. That was my point.

Chuck

Your shadow that grapples you?

Possible...you need a primary effect to make "solid air", a second one to move this mass and a third one so that it look like the shadow.

- MutoAuram level 4 will make air into metal
- MutoAuram level 5 will get you "solid air"
- MutoAuram level 10 allows you to "Transform air into something wholly unnatural" ...THAT can be a solid air that looks like a shadow

A REGO requisite will make it move so that it can grab...and grapple...and sqieeze...and hit :P

//MutoAuram level 4 will make air into metal
- MutoAuram level 5 will get you "solid air"//

I'm back at work and without my books but my recollection is that Auram deals with winds and weather - air is a concept that doesn't exist in the game.

In 5th edition it seems to exist.

I'm quoting the book, Muto Auram guidelinse, page 127:

- General: transform air into gas bla..bla..bla
- LvL 3: transform an amount of air into another form of air
- LvL 4: transform an amount of air into another element
- LvL 5: transform an amount of air into a mixture of elements
- LvL 5: transform an amount of air into something slightly unnatural
- LvL 10: transform an amount of air into something wholly unnatural

:D
Enjoy shadow magic! ^_^

Chuck Tuura used Creo Mentem to make us all think :
"We've discussed Shadow Magic in the past. I shouldn't have brought it up. In terms of color, it's simple to say a Magus works magic, and it appears as if shadows do it (but they don't).

I was thinking of grabbing/damageing someone via their shadow. This can't be done in Ars. It's just outside the mechanics/paradigm of the game. I'm ok with this. Ever power from every game doesn't have to fit into Ars. That was my point."

Chuck:

The example was to pin someone's shadow in place, thereby pinning the person casting the shadow in place (aka, SLAYERS' 'Shadow Snap' spell). The spell is cast, a dagger or something is thrown into the target's shadow, and they can't move. Of course, the spell is easilt defeated by simply moving the shadow, or waiting for the sun to go behind some clouds... You get the idea.

Steve

// The example was to pin someone's shadow in place, thereby pinning the person casting the shadow in place (aka, SLAYERS' 'Shadow Snap' spell). The spell is cast, a dagger or something is thrown into the target's shadow, and they can't move. Of course, the spell is easilt defeated by simply moving the shadow, or waiting for the sun to go behind some clouds... You get the idea. //

As I sayed earlyer, Shadow magic IS possible in ArM5...it is just the result of different Forms, instead of having its own Form :P

The spell you wanted can be done with Faerie Magic ;)

ReCo effect to "hold person" plus _UNTILL_ duration.
Problem is...it needs Ritual casting...but you can enchant a dagger with the "hold" effect and an "Untill" duration.
You will have a "Dagger of Shadows", able to pin shadows down.

"Moving" shadows is accomplished with RegoIgnem, with maybe a Perdo req.

"Real Shadows" can be accomplished using Muto and Rego Auram to control "black solidified air"...something VERY similar to shadows.

UG

Steve you fed this fire, you put it out! ;)

Chuck

I think the reason why such a spell, though neat looking, wouldn't work was thus : Shadows, like reflections, are a reflection of one's essential nature. Hermetic Magic cannot change one's essential nature, so therefore it falls outside hermetic limits, and can't be done that particular way. Rego Corpus does the job much more efficiently, anyway. It just looks neat.

And...

The spell you are looking for (Perdo Mentem) isn't here.
(waves hand)

This isn't the thread you (Muto Mentem) were reading.
(waves hand)

Move (Rego Mentem) Along.
(waves hand)

:)

Steve

Shadows have little to do with your EN, however in most cases of shadowmagic, it would be a simple cosmetic effect.

I.e. a ReCo spell to hold a man fast, makes it appear that shadows are holding him.

Correct. What we discusser earlier this year was stabbing a shadow and causing a body wounds, or stabbing a shadow and pinning a man to the ground. This sort of magic exists in anime, but the Hermetic system can't replicate it. That's the way the way the cookie crumbles, that's the way the bee bumbles...

Chuck

As sayed before...why not use "normal" magic with an aestetic addition?
It even come for free (as mentioned in the Rule book).

"My PerdoCorpus makes your shadow attack you and wound you!" :P
It's just a graphical effect, after all ^^

One could do this, but if one goes 'by the book', it is a very different thing to say 'it appears' that your shadow attacks you and 'your shadow' attacks you.

If your so interested in theory, you should get this.

It's one thing to attack a person with a Perdo Corpus spell and say it appears your shadow is killing you, it an all together different thing to have magic control a shadow and have it as a 'force' strangle you.

They are different things. And if you compromise the rules and say, we'll use Perdo Corpus rules, but 'for real it's your shadow doing the deed."

How does one defend? Do they get their Corpus as a defends or because 'it's suppose to be' shadow then Corpus doesn't apply. There is an old thread discussing this in detail. I'm not prone to making the rules overly complicated or making exceptions, or unique conditions. Such things I feel bog down play rather than improve it.

If we were to meet an Asian Magus with Anime like powers I would allow them to cast shadow magic in game and I suppose I would allow Heremtic Magi to use Parma Magica, but no Form bonus because nothing is truely applicable per the Hermetic Tradition. Grabbing a Shadow and making a person 'hold' isn't corpus nor is it Imagonem or whatever. It's outside the scope of the game and that's ok.

I wouldn't give the Asian Magi Parma Magica or an equivlent so it's likely the Hermetic would quickly kill his opponent, raise his spirit and ask him how he did it. The dead spirit would describe in detail how to recreate the effect, but the Asian tradition is indecipherable, so I've given the Magus the answer, but I didn't. That's my solution to the dillema.

Chuck

The point is that in Medieval Paradigma a "shadow" is just absence of light.
Darkness can be "evil", as a simbol, but it is not an "element".
Light and Darkness are "elements" in the eastern tradition, along with wood, flesh, and a lot more.

We westerns only have the 4 ermetic elements, plus some pseudo-religious "forms" that concern animals, humans, and so on.

You can have "Shadow Magic" that does the following:
- manipulate shape and position of shadows
- makes shadows "material", so they can do material things

The first effect is RegoIgnem, that directs the presence/absence of light...actually creating and shaping shadows; maybe it will require a Perdo requisite to "create" darkness.
THIS is "true" shadow manipulation.

The second effect is MutoAuram(+Rego +Ignem); the MutoAuram will make "solid air" (_air_ is an accepted concept in the ArM5 Auram guidelines), while the Rego requisite will make you move them (to act in any way you like) and the Ignem requisite makes them be light-less.
THIS is "true" shadow-stuff...

This way you can make Shadow servitors, shadow tendrills, shadow whatever!
They can attack, perform other tasks...with some Mentem you can also give them a mind so that they can act as independent servants, messangers, etc...

The mage is controlling _REAL SHADOWS_, it's not just a cosmetic effect...
Shadows in western culture are "absence of light", and controlling "solid absence of light" is as far as a western magus can go.

You may consider resisting them with Ignem instead of Auram... ;)

//The second effect is MutoAuram(+Rego +Ignem); the MutoAuram will make "solid air" (_air_ is an accepted concept in the ArM5 Auram guidelines), while the Rego requisite will make you move them (to act in any way you like) and the Ignem requisite makes them be light-less.
THIS is "true" shadow-stuff...

This way you can make Shadow servitors, shadow tendrills, shadow whatever!
They can attack, perform other tasks...with some Mentem you can also give them a mind so that they can act as independent servants, messangers, etc...//

Making a solid chunk of air that absorbs light is not playing with shadows. It's creating a facsimily of the thing. Your -so called- shadow will, in fact, cast a shadow of its own.

Hermetic magic does not lend itself well to shadows. I _might_ say however that a shadow is an arcane connection to its caster. I would also say that a shadow is an image.

I would therefore allow rego imagonem (vim) spells that manipulated shadows and used them as arcane connections. For instance a spell that sent your shadow off on it's own to act as a sort of forward observer for your arcane connection spells (naturally you'd want some of these spells to be intellego spells to allow you to perceive through your shadow)or a spell to steal another's shadow and use it as an AC for spells such as opening the intangible tunnel would both be allowed when i was storyguide.

The -so called- shadow will not cast a shadow...because YOU are controlling shadows wit Ignem.
That's the whole idea...a shadow is NOT an arcane connection...a shadow is "nothing".
In western culture a "shadow" is just "absence of light".

The effects I suggested will generate a "solid absence of light".

Shadows have not metaphisical substance or meaning of their own (in europen culture) other than being a simbol of what is Not-Light ... not-good ... not-something.

(OT Microrant ahead!)

And here we're running into the most common problem with any Ars Magica, in any edition, discussion:

Paradigm (and no, I don't mean $0.20).

20th Century logic and science simply doesn't apply. You have to try and think medievally. No modern process analysis, no thinking in a step-by-step manner. The scientific method might exist within the Order, but as has been said before "...The Order of Hermes is one big, honking anachronism, anyway..."

Shadows aren't simply an absence of light - that's modern science talking. Shapeshifters were often given away by differing shadows in thier human forms, for instance. If a shadow was simply an absence of light, this would not even be considered. And yet, it shows up in a number of stories. Why is that? Ars Magica is the game of mythic magic, the superstitions and folklore of the age is the truth, and Science is the myth.

Trying to think medievally is probably the hardest part of the game.

Shadows are best handled, IMHO, by the art of Imaginem, and the closest the order will get is one of the faerie magic spells that reveals your true intentions via your shadow. I now sincerely regret even bringing up the "Shadow Snap" discussion, and it's results.

Steve

Steve, you will recieve your wet noodle thrashing later this month ;)

Chuck