This has come up before I believe (maybe by me) where a wizard creates an itme that effects the wearer (we'll use a ring of Invisibility). The wizard's Parma should prevent the ring from working without adding levels of Penetration to it. The solution I came up with (other than adding levels of Penetration) is to create an "extra effect". Basically you add a few points to the power's level and it can now bypass the creator's Parma for that invested effect alone. The level should be 5 I felt. Note it is not the wearer's Parma, for that Penetration must be added. It is only the creator's Parma as the added effect meshes with the wizard's magic sigil while enacting the ritual of enchanting. It would be far too powerful if it automatically bypassed anyone's parma or resistance, magically trapped items would become the new way of bypassing parma.

What do you think?

I'd have no problems with this in my game.

However because a magus can supress their MR I've not yet seen a sitiuation where this would be useful come up in play. (Although I can imagine there being times when a caster wants to use an item on themselves when the danger of hostile magic is present.)

That's exactly the reason why it might be valuable. Sometimes you just can't risk suppressing your own Parma to activate it. To some enchanters, an extra +5 can be easily accomidated to others it can't, they'll have to decide. But I like having options like this, and up to +5 is a good guideline I think, with +5 being the high end. If it is actually higher than +5 (not through cumalative/cooperative bonuses, like having an item with a constant effect) it might be too powerful of an effect IMO.

Now then, what if the creator is also sharing his Parma with others, could the effect work on the others as well? I'd say so, but it is a wrinkle.

//Now then, what if the creator is also sharing his Parma with others, could the effect work on the others as well? I'd say so, but it is a wrinkle.//

From a game balance perspective this sounds fine.

However I don't know how I'd explain it in the game. The magic item castining it's effect on the creator I can see as a sort of modified range personal spell that bypasses your own parma. But this model breaks down when you want to use the effect on someone else.

You'd have to either ignore the issue or come up with a another model. (Such as a item that has an effect that the parma is "harmonized" with, don't let it fall into the hands of your enemies, or an item that synchronizes its effect to fit into a split second lowering of the parma.)

Hmmm, aren't you basically talking about making two objects your talisman? Any spell cast on yourself using your talisman would not have to bypass your parma as your talisman is especially attuned to you.

What you are in end effect allowing is for a person to have a lesser talisman.

In the end it is up to the SG. I'd suggest that 5 levels is a minor cost for something like this, and that the item has an arcane connection with the person its built for. It only functions that way for 1 person.

Without it being an arcane connection type item I don't see how it would work. Not without a mythic breakthrough equivelent to that which created the parma in the first place.

//Hmmm, aren't you basically talking about making two objects your talisman? Any spell cast on yourself using your talisman would not have to bypass your parma as your talisman is especially attuned to you.

What you are in end effect allowing is for a person to have a lesser talisman.//

Once again I'm answering without consulting the rulebooks first (which would resolve my uncertainties immediately).

I recall reading that talismans are protected by a magus' parma but I don't recall reading that an instilled effect in a talisman can bypass it's creator's parma. Are you sure that a talisman can?

"I recall reading that talismans are protected by a magus' parma but I don't recall reading that an instilled effect in a talisman can bypass it's creator's parma. Are you sure that a talisman can?"

I don't have the books with me now either. I know that your Talisman is protected by your parma and I THINK that what I said is true. Of course I can be wrong here.

///I recall reading that talismans are protected by a magus' parma but I don't recall reading that an instilled effect in a talisman can bypass it's creator's parma. Are you sure that a talisman can?///

Actually, an effect in a talisman doesn't bypass a magus's Parma, per se, it goes one even better: "Personal range spells can affect your talisman, Personal range effects in the talisman can affect you..." (pg. 98).

Unlike a standard enchanted device, which only allows Personal range effects to affect the device itself, a Personal range effect in a talisman can affect the magus.

So, if you design the effect with Personal range, it does not have to bypass the Parma any more than a Personal range spell would... and you get the additional bonus of saving a magnitude on the level of the effect.

If however, you design the effect with Touch or greater range, the effect would still be resisted by the Parma, just like any other Touch ranged effect or spell. I see nothing in the rules to indicate this is not the case.

//Actually, an effect in a talisman doesn't bypass a magus's Parma, per se, it goes one even better: "Personal range spells can affect your talisman, Personal range effects in the talisman can affect you..." (pg. 98).//

Thanks

Thanks as well. I agree with you, after I looked up the relevant rules last night.

But going back to the original concept, if a talisman or a mage for example can't cast a touch+ range spell without getting through the mages own parma I don't see how a trivial 5 levels in effect makes sense. This is something that I think requires a breakthru before it could be done and should be extremely difficult even afterwards. As this device is now doing something even a mage can't do.

With items a Magus makes for himself , i was under the impression that you take advantage of all or most of the 'Sympathetic Connections' on page 84 (ArM5).

You can give an item :
a 'birthname' (+01)
a 'nativity horoscope' (+02)
and make a 'Symbolic Representation' (+02)

A permanent representation takes a month of work though.

This leads to the idea of the "Charm Bracelet".
All those little 'symbolic representations' have to go somewhere , so you attach them to an item you are wearing , rather than just leave them lying around in the lab.
Of course , you dont want to lose the bracelet.

//With items a Magus makes for himself , i was under the impression that you take advantage of all or most of the 'Sympathetic Connections' on page 84 (ArM5).

You can give an item :
a 'birthname' (+01)
a 'nativity horoscope' (+02)
and make a 'Symbolic Representation' (+02)//

So rather than the item bypassing parma you'd give the item a penetration score and use sympathetic connections to boost the penetration score through the roof?

I think that hthis plan fits comfortably into the game without causing any ugly questions.

Here's how I think that I'd write the backround on it for my game;

the use of sympathetic connections in items was a discovery made by a magus Bonisagus some 70 years ago. It isn't a isn't particularily well known discovery and it worries some of the more paranoid magi because, although the present discovery restricts the use of the technique to effects that target the item's creator, the paranoid magi realze that a few seasons by skilled researcher would turn the discovery into something that someone could use to connect an item to any arcane connection.

Sounds good, but I bet with a season's work or so with any enchanted item, you could produce an arcane connection. After all it's something you spent at least a season working on intimately in your lab and with your magic Sigil. Wizards are sometimes able to capture spell casting Sigils already, this shouldn't be an exception.

The way I initially thought it through was a large point expenditure (for an enchantment +5 is high) that would allow to penetrate the creator's Parma automatically, but not be open for abuse, like being able to penetrate the user's Parma. It would however make the item a possible connection with just two season's work in the lab. One to investigate it as normal, one to 'fix' it as an arcane connection.

I'd keep it simple, but I do like the idea of using the Penetration guidelines outlined here, that could work well within the rules and not have to make a homebrew like mine.

//I'd keep it simple, but I do like the idea of using the Penetration guidelines outlined here, that could work well within the rules and not have to make a homebrew like mine.//

You're still going to have to home brew a bit.

The only option given for adding penetration to a device is adding levels to an effect, this gives you a bonus of +2 penetration per level added.

The effects of arcane connections used in this manner is to increase the multiplier of a character's penetration skill.

Naturally, an item doesn't have a penetration skill.

The simplest ruleing is would be to increase the "penetration multiplier" of the item. rather than giving +2 per level added to the effect, using an arcane connection adds a penetration bonus of 2+x per level added to the effect where x is the penetration multiplier of the AC.

This rule provides the magi with an extremely powerful tool, you might judge it to be too powerful for your game. With a season of work and a pawn of vim vis a magus may fix an arcane connection to be permanent. A permanent arcane connection has a bonus of +5. Ergo using a permanent AC and adding +5 to the level of the effect provides a penetration bonus of +35, a caster who can with enchant a level 30 effect into an item could choose to make a level 15 effect with a penetration of 105 against a target, that will penetrate the resitance of anything short of god himself .

'The simplest ruleing is would be to increase the "penetration multiplier" of the item. rather than giving +2 per level added to the effect, using an arcane connection adds a penetration bonus of 2+x per level added to the effect where x is the penetration multiplier of the AC.'

This is indeed one of the major breakthru that the Verdi have been working on for a while...

The rule to add +2 pen per lvl for magical obj is already way too strong... almost broken. A magus with merely 60 lab total can create an obj with 60 of penetration easilly which is very high (Most Magus of equal power do not have such resistence). Our troupe decided that we need to subtract the level of the effect (same as spells penetration) to the penetration value.

I personally think it is enought that if you use an arc to create a magical obj, it would allow for the obj to affect a target @ ARC range (if the effect is created with an arc range). The obj would also be an arcane connection that would help your penetration when casting formulaic,spont & ritual spells.

An easier breakthru that looks nice would be that a Wiz communion could be done with that obj to augment the penetration. I can imagine some winter convenant that has a major item that can control/summon some ancient magical entity. The only way to ensure the control of it is thru this object but it needs to peirce the beasts magic resistence & would require the use of the Modified Wiz communion in order to.

Edited 10/21/2005 1:40 pm ET by WilliamEx

I think (if you are ok with the present rule of 2 points per level)
that a sensible rule would be to require the magus to spend a season fixing an arcane connection and then incorporate the AC into the magic item. This item then gets extra levels x4 penetration against the specific target.

//The rule to add +2 pen per lvl for magical obj is already way too strong... almost broken. A magus with merely 60 lab total can create an obj with 60 of penetration easilly which is very high (Most Magus of equal power do not have such resistence). //

To my thinking sixty lab total would be the product of a specialized magus with an applicable magical focus (the virtue) who is just a bit out of apprenticeship, a lab focused magus with a strong tech + form combination about 10 years out, or an average magus who has 25 years past apprenticship under their belt.

How easy is it to make the item with a 60 penetration?

They could do it as a lesser enchanted device with a lab total of 60 the effect would have to be level 0 in order to leave the caster 30 levels for penetration, (of course form and effect bonuses, experimentation and the like could raise the total so the caster can get an effect of some sort).

With an invested device; the caster could produce a level 10 effect with 60 penetration in three seasons. (Tne season to open the object and two seasons instilling 20 levels per season on a level 40 effect). A level 20 effect would take the caster six seasons (at 10 levels per season).

A charged item would be easy to do, a single charge level 30 item with 60 penetration in one season.

I was going to try and defend the present system but upon reflection WilliumEx's concern isn't unwaranted.

On the other hand I managed to love 1rst, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th edition Ars magica where parma was almost always useless.

A level 10 effect isn't going to take a magus out of an encounter, nor is a level 20, a level 30 probably will but what can I say? The magus spends an entire season casting a single spell in that charaged item, do really want it to be blocked by the parma the target put up in only a minute or two this morning?

Still, you look at the big bad faerie in Guardians of the Forest who has set his sites on bringing down Durenmar and then figure out how little effort it would take the for magi to crush him, you have to feel a bit worried about how you can develop a long standing enemy for a saga without giving the characters a reason not to dispose of them. Having to give characters reasons not to off their antagonists rather than making foes too powerful to destroy will limit the sorts of stories that you can tell. (You can't really have a story like the lord of the rings if our protagonists can ignore the ring, develop and high power perdo vim spell and squish sauron like a bug from AC range without ever leaving rivendell.)

Looking back, I think just adding +5 to the level of the enchantment you want to bypass the creator's Parma is probably enough for me. It's simple, not open to abuse, expensive enough so that not everyone will take it, cheap enough for lab rats to show their stuff. It's not meant to be a way around the Parma for other effects, or a way to skirt it. It's just making a magic item a bit more special.

Another, easier way to do it, would be to add +5 to the level, and that sets the range to Personal where Personal is the creator and wielder of the item. That way it isn't penetrating the Parma. So even if the range was already Personal (like a ring of invisibility) you still need to add +5 to make it Personal for the creator and wielder.

Basically there should be a way to do this without tons of headache. Bonisiagus was a lab rat, he would have probably thought of some way, or one of his students, or maybe the Veriditians did.

'I think (if you are ok with the present rule of 2 points per level)
that a sensible rule would be to require the magus to spend a season fixing an arcane connection and then incorporate the AC into the magic item. This item then gets extra levels x4 penetration against the specific target.'

I would head this way if I was okay with the 2pts per lvl:

+5(modified effect, allow use of arcane connections) @ the creation of the original magical object.

I might even push it to 10 level since it is so powerfull.

4 pts/lvl seems a good way to fix the issue of no penetration score.

Another way to do it would be to have the magus 'master' the effect before instilling the effect & the add (value of the Arcane connection) + (Mastery(Penetration) times the magus penetration score) to the penetration total of the object of the Arcane connection. This would bring it closer to what exist in the rules.