I think a far better alternative to "Edge of the Razor" would be:

Son of Edge of the Razor (Re Te Level 10)
T: Touch D: Instant T:Ind

It would be level 10 because it would be of instant duration, rather than Sun. I would argue that it would be Rego rather than Muto, because sharpness is a natural state of a sword. The disadvantages of doing it this way is that it would need to be recast on the sword if it blunts. The advantages are that it is much easier to cast, and it cannot be resisted by Parma.

But is it legal?

You could rego a sword to sharpen it as anything that a mundane craftsman can do a rego spell can do as well (p78). I think that a spell that simply made the sword sharper would also fit well in creo as the sword is being brought closer to perfection rather than controled.

Chooseing a bonus for making a sword mundanely sharp is a tough one though. I believe that it might mitigate penaties for a dull sword but otherwise I believe that it might fall into the cracks in the rules because the differentiations of the system are too course to stat up an appropriately small bonus.

>>> I think that a spell that simply made the sword sharper would also fit well in creo as the sword is being brought closer to perfection rather than controled.

Actually I was thinking should it be Rego or Creo?

In one way, because it is making the sword better, it should be Creo. But what exactly would the spell be making better? What the sword is made of Terram, or the sharpness of the sword itself, which is a property of its shape, which implies Rego.

All in all, I think it would be easier to go for Creo.

>> Chooseing a bonus for making a sword mundanely sharp is a tough one though. I believe that it might mitigate penaties for a dull sword but otherwise I believe that it might fall into the cracks in the rules because the differentiations of the system are too course to stat up an appropriately small bonus.

Interesting point. Maybe just give it a +1 bonus as opposed to a +2 with the regular "Edge of a Razor", to reflect the fact that the sharpness if consistent as good as can be achieved by the best sword smith.

//Actually I was thinking should it be Rego or Creo//

i can't see any problem with either method. I'd allow them both.

//In one way, because it is making the sword better, it should be Creo. But what exactly would the spell be making better? What the sword is made of Terram, or the sharpness of the sword itself, which is a property of its shape, which implies Rego.//

I don't think of this in the same way you do. Clearly it is the metal that is sharp. Shape is one of the properties of the metal and is thus the form of Terrram shape could be changed not just by rego but by any technique (well perhaps there's no way to do it with intellego, but If I could think of a way to do it I'd have no additional dificulty in integrating shapes with intellego).

I do not hold the opinion that shape implies rego

//Interesting point. Maybe just give it a +1 bonus as opposed to a +2 with the regular "Edge of a Razor", to reflect the fact that the sharpness if consistent as good as can be achieved by the best sword smith//

Ah, I had previously (incorrectly) believed that the bonus for edge of the razor was +1. Seeing as edge of the razor provides a +2 bonus, I think I'd make the same choice that you did and give the sharp blade a +1 damage bonus.

>> Clearly it is the metal that is sharp.

At the risk of being pedantic: I don't think so.

Sharpness is not a natural property of metal. Sharpness is the natural property of a blade. To give examples: An iron sword is sharp, but an iron chain is not.

OK I see what you mean about 'shape'. It is the shape of the metal that gives it its purpose (blade or chain), so while any Perdo could change the blades shape, it could never be used to make it sharper, because there is an indirection. Shape defines sharpness, which defines the metal objects purpose, which is in turn effected by the magical technique.

Creo makes something better, or more of it, and Rego changes it in a natural way. So I agree, either could probably be used to sharpen a blade. However you have sold it to me that Creo is more appropriate than Rego.

>>Ah, I had previously (incorrectly) believed that the bonus for edge >>of the razor was +1. Seeing as edge of the razor provides a +2 >>bonus, I think I'd make the same choice that you did and give the >>sharp blade a +1 damage bonus.

Still its all a bit theoretical, as we seem to have come to the same conclusion in the end :-)

I made a ritual for basically a sword of legend. A more powerful weapon than a handcrafted one, yet not magical so it never raises the question of whether or not it would penetrate a Parma:

Sword of Legend CrTe 25 (Ritual)
Range: Touch Duration: Momentary Target: Individual

Creates a sword of extraordinary material, making it superior to other swords made by mundane craftsmen. A finesse roll must be made of 10 or higher to achieve this quality. If succesfully cast and the finesse roll is made, then the caster can choose to add +1 to one of the Sword's stats (this must be decided at the spell's design and creation, so there is a spell for each of the weapons stats). This is a permanent ritual, and the magic is gone after the spell is cast, so Might or Parma offers no protection from this sword. Note that the spell need not create a sword, other weapons could be created, and may need Requisites of Herbam or Animal as appropriate. Larger weapons such as Great weapons require an extra Maginitude.

Breakdown (Base create enhanced metal 20, +1 for Range)

More powerful versions of the spell can add more effect. A sword could be created that adds +1 to two stats (such as attack and defense). Doing such adds an extra magnitude to the effect for each additional stat. More points can be added also, allowing more than +1 on a stat, each additional plus adds a magnitude, and finally additional plusses and additional stats can all be added as long as each plus and extra stat is paid for by a magnitude of effect. The limit that can be achieved is double the weapon's base stats. A long sword can be raised to +8 accuracy (+4, a level 40 spell), but can only get up to a +2 Defense (the base spell can accomplish this). So to create a long sword that was maximized it would have stats of Init +4 Acc +8 Def +2 Dam +12. Such a sword would require a spell of 80th level (Base 25 +11 magnitudes for extra stats and plusses).

This basically calls upon the Platonic Ideal of forms to make the best sword that could conceivably exist without constant magical enhancement. I think Creo is ultimately the way to make a better sword not Rego. While Rego could sharpen a dull sword, I don't think it could sharpen it beyond the normal damage range. Creo could sharpen or repair a sword, but again could only go as sharp as a normal sword could go. It takes Muto or a Creo ritual IMO to get the higher levels of damage.

>> Clearly it is the metal that is sharp.

//At the risk of being pedantic: I don't think so.

Sharpness is not a natural property of metal. Sharpness is the natural property of a blade. To give examples: An iron sword is sharp, but an iron chain is not. //

I'm still not following your reasoning. Some metal is sharp some emtal is not. This doesn't mean the sharpness isn't a property of some pieces of metal. Some leaves are green and some leaves are gold does this mean that color is not a prperty of the leaf?

>> 'm still not following your reasoning. Some metal is sharp some emtal is not. This doesn't mean the sharpness isn't a property of some pieces of metal.

>> Some leaves are green and some leaves are gold does this mean that color is not a prperty of the leaf?

Look at it this way:

Some leaves are green and some leaves are gold this means that GREENESS is not a property of the leaf, rather it is a state the colour of the leaf may assume.

By the same argument:

Some pieces of metal are shaped as blades (i.e. they have a narrow edge, which if force is exerted on it, will exert a large pressure on a small line), and pieces of metal are NOT shaped as blades. This means that sharpness is not a property of the metal, rather it is a state the shape of the metal may assume.

If sharpness is not a property of the metal, rather it is a porperty of what a particularly shaped peice of metal (i.e., a blade) may assume naturally, then the technique should be Rego rather than Creo.

Do I make sense?

Keith

Ars p77

The Art of Creo makes things that exist independantly into better things of thier kind...

...Creating an artificial thing by magic requires some skill on the part of the magus, reflected by his Fin Ability.... ... Further, a magus can only create something he knows about... A magus need not be able to create an artificial item by mundane means in order to create it by magic, he needs only be familiar with it...A magically created item will always be the right sort of thing unless the magus botches his Fin roll.

A magically created item will always be the right sort of thing...

Remember that, I'm building a case.

Ars p78

The Art of Rego allows a maga to change the state of a thing to make it some other state that the individual thing can naturally have....

.... Mundane craftsman can only change somethings state to another state that the thing can naturally have. Thus, any change that a mundane craftsman can make can also be made by Rego magic. In this case, a Finesse roll is required to determine the quality of the outcome.

Let's keep this in mind, I have a mechanical theory to propose.

Son of Edge of the Razor (Re Te Level 10)
T: Touch D: Instant T:Ind

Duration:Instant does not exist in Ars 5. So the magic would need to be momentary or permanent. You want to avoid the Parma issue, so I imagine you want it to be Momentary.

Ok, my theory. I tend to look up stuff as I need it, and I can't see something in the Ars 5 that says I'm right. However in the old books it detailed that a characters stats represented their peak abilities. That is why experience can't be put into stats to improve them. Stats are as good as it gets and stats can only deteriorate over time (barring the interferance of magic).

With this in mind, I propose that the statisics of weapons detailed in the game detail the best stats a weapon can possess. That is, the weapons listed in the game aren't shabby weapon stats, they aren't mediocre weapon stats, they are the best stats a particular weapon can have.

Issues of quality allow weapons to last longer, but do not improve the stats of a weapon. Creo could be used to make a sword a "into better things of thier kind". However that doe not mean such a sword has better stats. Perhaps it's more durable, longer lasting, or maybe all the flaws of craftmans ship are removed. But it does not follow that that the stats of 'perfect' weapons are better than normal weapons. They are simply without error, (less likely to break on a botch?)

I also propose the best Rego can achieve is the stats a weapon has at it's natural finest quality. That quality is represented by the mechanical stats of the weapons provided in the book. So the best Rego can do, is provide book stats for weapons.

That is why neither Creo or Rego provide spells for making better weapons. That is why Muto alone has spells for making better weapons.
Muto can "grant or remove properties something cannot naturally have."

This is how Edge of the Razor works. It provides a +2 damage by making the sword unnaturally sharp. The sharpest a sword can naturally be is +5 (for a Short Sword).

Now this is a big poo-poo on all the people who like to tinker and make custom weapons, it's the way I read things.

Material to discuss and consider,

Chuck

I follow your argument.

But the whole thing hangs on one key premise:

>>> However in the old books it detailed that a characters stats represented their peak abilities.

Now an alternative interpretation the stats would have refered to the 'operational' condition of the equipment people are using. This would usually be good, by not quite peak (as can be achieved by Rego magic).

I have most of the old ArM books, can your remember which one and where abouts the 'peak ability' interpetation came from?

Keith

Hi,

Again, I'll try to build a case.

Ars5, pg 18 the description of character characteristics reads:

... each representing one of a given character's inborn attributes.
... Since characteristics represent your character's inborn potential, they cannot be increased by normal means.

Ok, I will be the first to admit that is not a description of weapon stats. However, consider that we are discussing the mechanics of the game. Typically, whenever possible the mechanics of any game attempt to be consistent.

We know for a fact that character stats represent 'inborn potential' and 'cannot be increased by normal means'.

When reading the stats for Magic, I infer that the stats provided are not an average, but again the 'inborn potential'.

That is, Creo Ignem Lvl 35 can produce a fire doing +30 damage (p.140).

This +30 damage is not an average, it is the peak damage possible by Creo Ignem Lvl 35. This is consistent with Character Stats and prevents characters from doing more than +30 damage at Creo Ignem Lvl 35.

Again, this is an inference, and I admit I could be wrong. However consistency suggests that weapons stats represent the 'inborn potential' of the weapon and 'can not be increased by normal means'.

I admit I could be wrong, but my inference maintains consistency in the mechanics of the game, while suggesting that weapons stats are an average means weapons stats are inconsistent with the rest of the mechanical system.

For what it's worth, 12 hours ago I would have agreed with you. That weapons represent an 'average' weapon. In the process of writing a reponse concerning useing Rego or Creo magic instead of Muto a light went on. Essentially I realized that it is an assumption to believe that weapons stats are an 'average'. Nothing in the game suggests they are an average. Again, I suggest that consistency suggests that weapons stats are not an average, but the 'inborn potential' (that is max stat mundanely possible) for a particular weapon.

The only thing I see that suggests I am wrong would be in Ordo Noblis I believe there is a viture that provides weapons of quality which adds a bonus to damage (I think). However, Ordo Noblis is a 4th edition product and it doesn't follow that everything in the book still applies to 5th ed. Furthermore, I believe this is a Virture, which means the weapons possessed aren't normal weapons. They are weapons bestowed via Virtue and that fact makes them exceptional. So again, I propose that weapon stats represent the 'peak' statistic obtainable my mundane means.

Thoughts?

Chuck

From my point of view, trying concoct a reason for not allowing sharper weapons based on consistancy with the characteristic rules is counterproductive.

Letting the characters get an additional +1 damage is fun for the players.

Don't stop the players from having fun unless you expect the fun to cause disasterous results down the road.

Chuck

I think you have a good case, but its not the only case.

The ArM rules, indeed any set of simulation rules, depends on abstraction.

I think this argument (about weapon condition) is at a level of granularity finer than that allowed by the abstraction of the ArM rule set.

So I think it could be taken either way.

As a wargamer, I am biased in so much as wargames rules are tend to based on operational characteristics, rather than paper characteristics (and when they are not, this is considered to be a flaw in the rules).

So I would swing on the side of saying that the stats in ArM are operational stats: If I was the games master, I would assume that sword stats where slightly less than the best achievable. So 'Son of Edge of a Razor' would stand, it would only give +1 bonus, that would disappear if a 0 was thrown when the sword was in use to simulate the blunting of the edge as it hit other swords.

Keith

//I think you have a good case, but its not the only case.//

I agree. I began my position by saying it's infered and not based on a written rule. It's still an insight I've never had before, as is the premise that weapons stats reflect an average is an assumption about the mechanics and not a confirmable fact. It's these sort of ideas that intrigue me.

I do feel strongly that the only way people can discuss a game such as Ars Magica is by establishing a 'by the book' interpretation. Many of these discussion are based on 'by the book' interpretations and I spend a lot of time trying to write these ruleings because it's something I enjoy.

However every game enjoys house rules. And while house rules may be based on 'by the book' rulings, they are not obligated to be based on anything at all. Specifically, the +1 Damage bonus is completely reasonable, regardless if I'm right or wrong. Muto establishes that +2 is unnaturally sharp, so the only wiggle room would be a +1 Damage bonus.

So enjoy the bonus and point that sword at someone else!

Chuck

//If sharpness is not a property of the metal, rather it is a porperty of what a particularly shaped peice of metal (i.e., a blade) may assume naturally, then the technique should be Rego rather than Creo.

Do I make sense?//

You're still not making sense to me.

To paraphrase how I'm interpreting you, you're saying that a sharper sword can't be made by moveing the sword to perfection BECAUSE not all pieces of metal are swords, therefore the idea of a perfect "sword" can not be moved towards, swords don't exist without shaping.

I don't think that you're saying that manufactured items don't have forms are you?

Why would it matter that not all pieces of metal have a quality of sharpness? In the discussion on targets the rules tell us that magic deals with metaphysically important distinctions (which is why target individual is easier than target part). Clearly a sword can be a sharp sword or a dull sword. Why is the method of it's shapeing important.

I'm probably very far afield from your thinking on this issue. I just don't see the distinction that you're making. Why do you think the spell must deal with properties of "metal" rather than the properties of "this chunk of metal right here" (or is this even what you're thinking)?

I'll try and put it another way.

From page 77 of ArM:

1. Creo makes things that exist independantly (substances) better.

2. Sharpness depends on shape, it is one of the many characteristics of a sword, because a sword is a complex form.

3. As sharpness is a characteristic of the form, and not the form itself, using Creo on the Sword is not specific to sharpness, and as the sword itself is a complex form, and the caster is not creating it from new, then Creo is not the appropriate form.

4. Rego on the otherhand can mimic anything that can be done by an artisan - in this case, sharpen the sword.

5. As a rule of thumb, I you don't need to know how the object works to make it better then use Creo (i.e. Heal the Dog - which unknown to you has a tape worm). I you do need to know how the object works to make it better then use Rego, (i.e. make the edge of the sword finer, and remove all kinks). The exception to this is when you are creating the whole sword from new, because each of its separate characteristics s not isolated).

I believe it's based on the concept of a Platonic Ideal. In this way of thinking, the abstraction, or the ideal, is more perfect than the real world object it corresponds to.

This is contrary to the way we thing today. For example, I'm a systems analyst, and if I was to abstract 'Brains', it would have a very different characteristics depending if the 'Brains' where for a butchers, or a nuero-surgeon, becuase I would only model relevant detail in each case.

This makes the abstraction less perfect than the real world object.

If you are still confused, then I sympathise. I find this way of thinking confusing to, and I'm not sure I have it right!

Keith

As per previous posts, I think we have to take it that the Muto spell makes a +2 damage bonus count as "unnaturally sharp".
It is therefore reasonable to suggest that a +1 bonus *might* be "naturally sharp" but better than the run-of-the-mill sword.

If it's natural, then CrTe can improve the item to reach this ideal;
since a craftsman can improve a weapon, the ReTe can do the same (albeit with an unspecified difficulty - we have to hope that a forthcoming supplement will clarify what magic is needed to actually "do what a mundane craftsman can do"...)
CrTe either has to have an extended duration, or be a Momentary Ritual to have a lasting improvement;
ReTe crafts-effects appear to be lasting, like other Rego changes... I think I'd go with Rego, if only I could say what the extra difficulties of magical working would be...

//I think I'd go with Rego, if only I could say what the extra difficulties of magical working would be...

I think the roll is effect specific.

In your case, to sharp a sword with rego, you mimic the effect of a Profession: Weaponsmith or Master Crafter: Swords. The speciality that would apply would be 'sharpen'.

The roll would hence be Finesse+Skill

The difficulty would be the same as if making the sword.

I would use the following:

6+: Poor , it will cut
9+: Regular quality Sharpening(as per book stats)
12+: Master quality Sharpening(+1)

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I would have the spell add up one mag if you want it to be able to reach up to master quality sharpening.

Note that using Cr would not only give you a +1 to sharpening but probable a +1 to all the stats involved( init, atk, dfn & dam). It would indeed create a master craft quality sword.

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CrTe(Base 5, +1 touch, +2 Sun, +0 Ind,+1 unnatural) = 25 (or 15 as a Ritual) +1 all)
ReTe(Base 3, +1 Touch, +0 Mom,+0 Ind,+2 Metal, +1 Precision)= 15 (+1 Dam with 12+ dice roll)
MuTe(Base 3,+1 Touch,+2 Sun,+0 Ind,+2 Metal) = 20 (+2 Dam)

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Make your choice!