I want to make an enchanted device with some semblance of intellegence; for instance, something with Unseen Porter and enough of a mind to be given broader commands ("put that in my laboratory without breaking anything.") I presume this would require a Creo Mentem effect in the device, but at what level?

Any thoughts? Any guidelines or precedences in 5th ed. I should be looking at?

Ah... the wait for Mysteries continues on. Although it could just as easily be in Mystery Cults, or never produced at all. (Although I think there have been various automotons before.)

I was thinking Mentem because I wanted it to be a bit more general, and have a broader range of options. Specifically, I was thinking of an autonomon that could clean my magus's lab as well as do his laundry. You know, for those times in between apprentices.

With lots of vis. :)

All joking aside, it is far cheaper (time and vis wise) to build an item than handles all the mundane drudgery automatically than to build an automaton to do it at your command. Of course, the Automaton gives you something the clean-o-matic wand doesn't - something to brag about.

At the moment, there are no rules under 5th edition for doing so. You'd have to fall back to 4th Edition, and the Mysteries, for Automaton creation. At the least, it will take you 4 seasons for a basic automaton, and 20 pawns of vis. It gets worse from there. If you're not initiated into the right mysteries, your automaton could decide to wipe the floor -with- you instead of for you, or simply go >>BOOM!<<

It may take you as many seasons to build your clean the lab, put everything away device, but far less vis. If your totals are high enough, you could even make several smaller, lesser enchanted devices.

There is always a way, but why does everyone want to do it the hard way first?

Steve

I think that there is one fully detailed choice in the game as it has been detailed thus far(prior to The Mysteries Revised or HoH: Mystery Cults).

That choice is to use a creo mentem (or perhaps creo animal?) spell of constant duration to give the object a mind, and then put all of the other magical effects with linked triggers to the creo mentem effect. (You'd probably need some constant duration intellego imagonem spells to allow the object to both see and hear, perhaps a constant thoughts wiithin bable so it can understand you depending upon whether you think that Latin is hard coded into the Hermetic OS, I'd say not). This seems to me to be a very difficult and involved proposition for an invested device even for a lab focused Verditius.

A more practical way would be to cut a deal with a spirit (perhaps one that is created with creo vim) to inhabit your item. This looks like it falls within hermetic magic but it has yet to be detailed in the published material(but I'd feel no trepidation in filling in the blank areas myself. We can't wait for Atlas to do all our work for us can we? By the time they're done we'll need a new edition and we'll be right back wgher we started.)

An adaptation of the fourth edition alchemical construct rules would also be a reasonable way to go.

Edit
I suggested creo mentem, to create a new mind for the item. How about a non-constant creo mentem effect that created a duplicate of the weilder's mind?

And As is often the case I claim that as I toil in my serfhood I have no reference books available.

I personally think you should simply look @ p.144 of the core book.

CrIm40 Shadow Of Human Life

It has a +6 for memtem rq that mimics human intelligence. I guess you could apply something similar to your effect.

Well, if you read P144 it says, "+6 Mentem requisite, for a very elaborate effect".

So the 'why' +6 is "for a very elaborate effect".

Having said this, I have a question. Is there anywhere in the book where all these 'tweaks' are listed?

As many of you know one of the reasons why I like Ars 5 so much is because the magic system has been quantified in a manner that leaves little room for debate. I enjoy this because it establishes common ground and allows us to reasonable explain why a spell should be level X from game to game. This is an element previous editions lacked to a certain degree. Each older edition has a wider range of interpretation, which resulted in spells being out of balance and less common ground for people to communicate, understand, and agree upon results.

Having said this, my one pet peeve with Ars5 is the wiggle room of these Magnitude Tweaks.

Shadow of Human Life has +6 Met Req, for a very elaborate effect. Above it Haunt of the Living Ghost details +2 move at your command, +1 intricacy.

These bug me because as far as I know they exist specific to particular spells and these mods don't exist in a clear list. Without that list, people only know them as they read the spells and discover them. Without knowledge of them, people don't use them. Furthermore even with knowledge of them, some of them are open to interpretation. For instance, while I'm prone to being conservative in spell construction and if I simply suspect something might apply I add the requisite on. I would say most people lean towards explaining why a req doesn't apply, making the spell cheaper to build and easier to cast. Such things work to their advantage.

So when does one apply 'intricate'? When does one apply "elaborate effect"?

Ok rant over. I'll be sane in the morning,

Chuck